New McDonalds/Drive thru planned for the Hough Retail Park - not happy

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
I think you'll find it wasn't just a Kiosk, but a Hacienda....
Back in the '70s, it was certainly a kiosk to us, rather Portakabin in style - it metamorphosed into a hacienda at a later time, before fully emerging in its current form, as a replica of a Spanish Police Station.

On the right here.
1390-0.jpg
 

citricsquid

Well-Known Forumite
The balcony of the Wimpy was always a treat, and in the upstairs they had the toys in the corner. The Wimpy was the best part of being a kid in Stafford. When did that Wimpy open in Stafford? I think they closed down in 2009ish?
 

markpa12003

Well-Known Forumite
I do have a lot of sympathy for Stafford BC's planning department and SCC's Highways Department because they are sometimes unfairly criticised by people that do not understand the planning system. SBC Planners must determine planning applications in accordance with national and local planning policy unless material considerations indicate otherwise. At the national level, we have the National Planning Policy Framework (NPPF) (worth a read). This is a pro-growth document and has a presumption in favour of development. The premise being that 'Developments should be approved unless the negatives outweigh the benefits'. The benefits being an additional 20, 30, 40 jobs (??).

In my opinion there are 3 potential negatives with the proposal; traffic, noise and light pollution. In terms of traffic, the NPPF sets out that 'developments should only be refused on highways grounds if the impacts of the development will be severe'. As such, the Highways Department are not always able to object to schemes even if they might want too. The very fact that the proposed McDonalds may add a couple of additional cars on the road network and increase queues at the traffic lights by a couple of minutes does not constitute (imo) a severe impact (please note I am not a transport consultant, however I do speak from experience).

In terms of light pollution, the planners can refuse (and I hope they do) the neon light because of its impact on the residential amenity of those living at the Crossings. They can also insist that any lighting minimises light spillage.

Noise - The proposed scheme will increase noise, especially at non sociable hours (6am - midnight) depending upon the permitted opening hours. However, will the increase in noise levels (of its normal use) impact on neighbouring residential amenity. In order to assess the noise impact, the planners will insist that a noise assessment is carried out. The noise assessment will measure existing noise levels and predict the potential increase in noise levels as a result of this development. In order to do this, they will measure the noise levels at other McDonalds drive thrus. If the noise levels are deemed to be significant at the nearest noise sensitive location (nearest residential property), the Environmental Health Officer will insist on noise mitigation measures or object to the scheme. The application could be refused on noise grounds, however I doubt it will be because I do not think the noise levels at the nearest residential property will be significant to justify a refusal reason.

in light of the above SBC and SCC have a very difficult job to try and refuse this scheme even if they wanted too.

It may sound from the above that I am in favour of this application, I am not. I hope this application is refused. However, my reasons for wanting this application refused are based on non planning reasons and therefore they cannot be used by the planning dept to refuse the scheme. I want the scheme refused because it will attract inconsiderate, lazy chavs that think it is acceptable to dispose of their litter on the floor and to play their music at full blast at unsociable hours, however sadly there is not a planning policy in the local plan, which states ‘applications should be refused if it will attract stupid, lazy chavs’. If there was the planners / objectors could rely on this policy to refuse the scheme.

In order to get this scheme refused, I would urge the objectors to do the following:-
  • Lobby your local ward councillor;
  • Set up a petition;
  • Write letters of objection that quote planning reasons (see above) as to why the scheme should be refused;
  • Look at the planning consents that have been approved for the retail park and KFC. Did the consent for the retail park restrict the number of A5 uses (drive thrus / restaurants). If it did, quote it in your objection letter. Read the committee report for the KFC application who objected to the application? Why did they object? Did the planner raise any concerns about the application? What planning policies did they quote (Quote these policies back in your letter)? If the planning dept had concerns about 1 drive thru, surely these concerns should be doubled by permitting another drive thru.
  • Visit the other drive thru in Stafford. Take photographs. What issues does this drive thru have? State these in your letter of objection and provide proof if you can.
Before I get accused of it, I do not work for SBC or SCC, however I do have significant experience of the planning and property profession. If the objectors want any more advice PM me.
 

John Marwood

I ♥ cryptic crosswords
I do have a lot of sympathy for Stafford BC's planning department and SCC's Highways Department because they are sometimes unfairly criticised by people that do not understand the planning system. SBC Planners must determine planning applications in accordance with national and local planning policy unless material considerations indicate otherwise. At the national level, we have the National Planning Policy Framework (NPPF) (worth a read). This is a pro-growth document and has a presumption in favour of development. The premise being that 'Developments should be approved unless the negatives outweigh the benefits'. The benefits being an additional 20, 30, 40 jobs (??).

In my opinion there are 3 potential negatives with the proposal; traffic, noise and light pollution. In terms of traffic, the NPPF sets out that 'developments should only be refused on highways grounds if the impacts of the development will be severe'. As such, the Highways Department are not always able to object to schemes even if they might want too. The very fact that the proposed McDonalds may add a couple of additional cars on the road network and increase queues at the traffic lights by a couple of minutes does not constitute (imo) a severe impact (please note I am not a transport consultant, however I do speak from experience).

In terms of light pollution, the planners can refuse (and I hope they do) the neon light because of its impact on the residential amenity of those living at the Crossings. They can also insist that any lighting minimises light spillage.

Noise - The proposed scheme will increase noise, especially at non sociable hours (6am - midnight) depending upon the permitted opening hours. However, will the increase in noise levels (of its normal use) impact on neighbouring residential amenity. In order to assess the noise impact, the planners will insist that a noise assessment is carried out. The noise assessment will measure existing noise levels and predict the potential increase in noise levels as a result of this development. In order to do this, they will measure the noise levels at other McDonalds drive thrus. If the noise levels are deemed to be significant at the nearest noise sensitive location (nearest residential property), the Environmental Health Officer will insist on noise mitigation measures or object to the scheme. The application could be refused on noise grounds, however I doubt it will be because I do not think the noise levels at the nearest residential property will be significant to justify a refusal reason.

in light of the above SBC and SCC have a very difficult job to try and refuse this scheme even if they wanted too.

It may sound from the above that I am in favour of this application, I am not. I hope this application is refused. However, my reasons for wanting this application refused are based on non planning reasons and therefore they cannot be used by the planning dept to refuse the scheme. I want the scheme refused because it will attract inconsiderate, lazy chavs that think it is acceptable to dispose of their litter on the floor and to play their music at full blast at unsociable hours, however sadly there is not a planning policy in the local plan, which states ‘applications should be refused if it will attract stupid, lazy chavs’. If there was the planners / objectors could rely on this policy to refuse the scheme.

In order to get this scheme refused, I would urge the objectors to do the following:-
  • Lobby your local ward councillor;
  • Set up a petition;
  • Write letters of objection that quote planning reasons (see above) as to why the scheme should be refused;
  • Look at the planning consents that have been approved for the retail park and KFC. Did the consent for the retail park restrict the number of A5 uses (drive thrus / restaurants). If it did, quote it in your objection letter. Read the committee report for the KFC application who objected to the application? Why did they object? Did the planner raise any concerns about the application? What planning policies did they quote (Quote these policies back in your letter)? If the planning dept had concerns about 1 drive thru, surely these concerns should be doubled by permitting another drive thru.
  • Visit the other drive thru in Stafford. Take photographs. What issues does this drive thru have? State these in your letter of objection and provide proof if you can.
Before I get accused of it, I do not work for SBC or SCC, however I do have significant experience of the planning and property profession. If the objectors want any more advice PM me.

I too have some sympathy with our town planners

But not with foreign multi-nationals who will be taking out 99% of all revenues from the UK, supplying poisonous corn oil junk, whilst at the same time bed blocking the arteries of young people which will in turn cost the NHS its actual existence

It is not the erection of yet another corn oil bin that we should be getting wound up about, it is the whole concept of the lack of direct and indirect taxation on the foods and drinks that cost our fellows citizens their health, their dignity and our taxes, when we attempt to repair this damage
 

markpa12003

Well-Known Forumite
John Marwood I agree with your post. However, the development will generate additional jobs. How many? I have no idea, however I assume many of the new employees will be local and will spend their money locally. The economic benefits of a scheme weigh heavily in favour of it.
 

John Marwood

I ♥ cryptic crosswords
John Marwood I agree with your post. However, the development will generate additional jobs. How many? I have no idea, however I assume many of the new employees will be local and will spend their money locally. The economic benefits of a scheme weigh heavily in favour of it.

If a third McDonalds restaurant is something the town should be grateful for then Stafford has hit rock bottom
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
John Marwood I agree with your post. However, the development will generate additional jobs. How many? I have no idea, however I assume many of the new employees will be local and will spend their money locally. The economic benefits of a scheme weigh heavily in favour of it.

More money will go into the new restaurant via customers than will be returned to workers as wages, and the workers themselves will mostly be on NMW. This is true of all multi nationals, except Starbucks who make no profit whatsoever and only continue to aggressively expand through the goodness of their hearts.
 

markpa12003

Well-Known Forumite

If a third McDonalds restaurant is something the town should be grateful for then Stafford has hit rock bottom


I am not suggesting that Stafford should be grateful for ANOTHER McDonalds. I am certainly not a fan. However, when determining the planning application the economic benefits (i.e. jobs) will be taken into consideration and will weigh heavily in its favour.

As I stated in my original post there is a presumption in favour of development and the NPPF states applications should only be refused if the negatives outweigh the benefits. Its a balancing judgement do the additional 20, 30, 40 jobs outweigh the negatives(?) and are the negatives significant enough to warrant a refusal. I hope the application is refused.
 

1JKz

Well-Known Forumite
^
Who is this guy?

20+ zero hours jobs*, how nice.

Oh, he did say "I hope the application is refused", good!


*build it now, build it now!!!
 

markpa12003

Well-Known Forumite
I am that guy. For the second, or maybe the third time I am not in favour of this application and nor am I a fan of McDonalds. I am merely trying to inform people of the considerations that the planning dept will consider when determining the planning application. The no. of jobs to be created will be considered a material benefit. Sadly, the planning dept can't refuse an application based on how much the company might pay its staff or their awful working practices i.e. zero hour contracts. The planning dept can also not refuse a scheme because the company does all it can to avoid paying tax in the UK. All the planning dept can do is determine the planning application on its merits and based on planning reasons.
 

Laurie61

Well-Known Forumite
John Marwood I agree with your post. However, the development will generate additional jobs. How many? I have no idea, however I assume many of the new employees will be local and will spend their money locally. The economic benefits of a scheme weigh heavily in favour of it.

I am not sure whether this is actually the case. If fast food outlets already exist do you increase demand by opening new capacity or share around what is already there. If the latter then existing retailers reduce staffing levels as their businesses experience reduced demand. So no new jobs get created in total.
 

markpa12003

Well-Known Forumite
Laurie61 I have no idea why McDonalds considers there to be a requirement for another McDonalds, I would assume its because their existing McDonalds premises are overtrading and they identified an additional need. As such, new jobs will be created. I have no idea how many, however it will be set out in the planning statement and on the application forms.

I'd be very surprised if McDonalds would build another outlet if it would adversely affect their existing premises. In the planning statement I would expect to see some justification as to why there is a need for a 3rd outlet. The Local Planning Authority may also insist that the applicant submits a need assessment and a sequential assessment. I would hope they would.
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
If you've ever tried to drive from one side of Stafford to the other you'll see the need, I can't imagine anybody south of the market square uses the current drive through unless they happen to be passing already? Much that the idea that people leave their homes to fetch a McDonalds is rather sad it certainly does happen.
 

My Name is URL

Well-Known Forumite
I am that guy. For the second, or maybe the third time I am not in favour of this application and nor am I a fan of McDonalds. I am merely trying to inform people of the considerations that the planning dept will consider when determining the planning application. The no. of jobs to be created will be considered a material benefit. Sadly, the planning dept can't refuse an application based on how much the company might pay its staff or their awful working practices i.e. zero hour contracts. The planning dept can also not refuse a scheme because the company does all it can to avoid paying tax in the UK. All the planning dept can do is determine the planning application on its merits and based on planning reasons.

Don't worry Mark, I found your post above ^^ #66 very informative and can see precisely where you are coming from. Cheers.
 

richie e

A few posts under my belt
Need to remember that the two exsisting mcdonalds are franchises. There may have been an agreement for maccys not to build another store for a fixed period of time. This may have lapsed now, hense the application
 
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