A man of principle.

RowanDraper

RowanDraper

Well-Known Forumite
tek-monkey said:
Didn't they start the NHS privitisation too? And tuition fees, hardly a left leaning policy.
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Tuition Fees was a policy that increased the amount of money available as individual students chipped in as well as the Government putting money in. It’s hardly the most right wing policy either.

Labour didn’t start privatisation, and not within the NHS - that was Major, but they accelerated it yes. From my memory of that time period there was massive dissatisfaction with NHS at the time because people were spending a lot of time on waiting lists for operations in agony. Whilst privatisation can be labelled by some as an evil I’d rather people get quick and effective treatment, which is what the NHS was setup for, and that the bill for the treatment remain the responsibility of the NHS.
 
tek-monkey

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
RowanDraper said:
Tuition Fees was a policy that increased the amount of money available as individual students chipped in as well as the Government putting money in. It’s hardly the most right wing policy either.

Labour didn’t start privatisation, and not within the NHS - that was Major, but they accelerated it yes. From my memory of that time period there was massive dissatisfaction with NHS at the time because people were spending a lot of time on waiting lists for operations in agony. Whilst privatisation can be labelled by some as an evil I’d rather people get quick and effective treatment, which is what the NHS was setup for, and that the bill for the treatment remain the responsibility of the NHS.
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So you'd rather pay private firms that make a profit and leave us with nothing than actually fix problems and invest in infrastructure? Yeah, you may need a blue tie.
 
RowanDraper

RowanDraper

Well-Known Forumite
tek-monkey said:
I'm a voter, I am the country. Last time Labour went too far right the original centrist party took enough votes off them to end up in a coalition, abandoning the left will keep them out of power. If they want to go further to the right then we already have a party for that?

If your supporters were outvoted by 'far left' supporters then you are out of touch with what Labour supporters want. If you weren't you'd have the support? The very fact that corbyn has increased membership massively must tell you people want this? I work with data on a daily basis, and I have no idea how to spin these figures to make the left be the problem.
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It is too simplistic to assess the 2010 General Election results through a prism of policies. It wasn’t. Gordon Brown wasn’t very popular in the country, and at the time of economic instability people were hurting and wanted to punish who they saw as in charge. Labour didn’t cause the economic crisis.

If the NRA (National Rifle Association) has a membership of 500 and I whip up 1000 people to join them to overturn their policies and make the organisation unrecognisable to its founding principles - is it still the NRA?

How many people join political parties? Membership has declined since the Second World War and with respect to odd balls, generally, people who join political parties are odd balls. Spending time on doors, raising money for the party and experiencing bruising meetings because you’re on the wrong wing of the party shows that our politics is broken.

Maybe what Corbyn has successfully done, as well as the hard right of the Tories, is show that we need more parties and proportional representation? I’m undecided on this but it seems to be a strong conclusion to make.
 
RowanDraper

RowanDraper

Well-Known Forumite
tek-monkey said:
So you'd rather pay private firms that make a profit and leave us with nothing than actually fix problems and invest in infrastructure? Yeah, you may need a blue tie.
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No. I’d personally like to fix the problems and invest in infrastructure like sorting out the Health and Social Care crisis.

But having a choice between treating someone efficiently and quickly against slow and efficiently I’m always going to say that I want people treated as quickly as possible.
 
tek-monkey

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
RowanDraper said:
No. I’d personally like to fix the problems and invest in infrastructure like sorting out the Health and Social Care crisis.

But having a choice between treating someone efficiently and quickly against slow and efficiently I’m always going to say that I want people treated as quickly as possible.
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Yet you agree with a short term fix that is guaranteed to exacerbate the issue further down the line? Each time something moves out of the NHS it is destined to never return, we often end up with the same staff in the same buildings doing the same jobs but now somebody takes a cut of the funding, why? It was always a knee jerk reaction, instant fix but means forever paying, refusing to invest in infrastructure seems at odds with trying to stabilise a system.

Let me put it another way, why do people buy houses rather than just rent?
 
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tek-monkey

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
RowanDraper said:
If the NRA (National Rifle Association) has a membership of 500 and I whip up 1000 people to join them to overturn their policies and make the organisation unrecognisable to its founding principles - is it still the NRA?
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I feel I need to go back to this. What exactly is Corbyn doing that is unrecognisable to the Labour partys founding principals? They were always socialists weren't they? Surely Blair betrayed the founding principals and those that supported his vision are now wondering where 'their' party went? Also, in your instance, not only would you have a party twice as powerful as the NRA but you are assuming that nobody already in the NRA preferred the new approach.

Labour are doing better under Corbyn than they have since they were last in power, correct? The conservatives had a majority before him, now they need the DUP to stay in government. The lib dems signed a death warrant in 2010, which certainly helped Labour votes, but that doesn't account for enough of the change. Austerity is biting, people are suddenly realising the poor bear the brunt, I believe we are experiencing a swing back to the left.
 
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joshua

joshua

Well-Known Forumite
Are the "hard left" and the "hard right" rising to power in both parties therefore the creation of a new centerist group made up of both spectrums to find a middle ground is preferable to those mp's and supporters who are concerned about the aggressive stance being taken by the two main parties ?
 
tek-monkey

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
joshua said:
Are the "hard left" and the "hard right" rising to power in both parties therefore the creation of a new centerist group made up of both spectrums to find a middle ground is preferable to those mp's and supporters who are concerned about the aggressive stance being taken by the two main parties ?
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That used to be what the yellows were for, they just sat between the two. Don't get me wrong, I'm happier with a new centrist party than another far right, but lets face it all they'll do is take a small percentage of votes off both parties giving little net overall effect.

I'm still not sure what about Corbyn is far left though. Nationalised transport is the norm in most countries in the EU, and it works much better and cheaper than here. Hell, I'm flying to the Azores again in June and it's costing less than a train to London! Is not selling the NHS far left? Thatcher wouldn't agree, that was something even she wouldn't touch. What about workers rights, is that far left? I'm lost TBH, I can't really see anything he's doing that we didn't already have before the conservatives sold it.
 
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BobClay

BobClay

Well-Known Forumite
The whole idea from the likes of the 'centrists' (pseudo Tories) and the 'right' (pseudo Tories squared) is to make the word 'Socialist' as abhorrent as the word 'Communist' was to the likes of McCarthy in the fifties. As far as I can see it's working, I'm sure the 'men of principle' are clapping their hands in glee.

I'm afraid words like 'principle' and 'honour' really are not part of their vocabulary … now matter how much they spout them out. BS is BS, despite the spin.

They're all programmed. Like I said, press a button, out comes a pre-recorded drivel. Sadly, the trendy word we have now is 'populism' and politicians in general are sucking it up like Ambrosia, (not the rice, the food of the gods.)

It's a bit like selecting a record on one of those old fashioned juke boxes, except nobody is changing the records anymore. They've all been churned out of the same meat grinder.
 
Z

Zylo

Well-Known Forumite
Heart bleeds, didn't you use your position to make money from public speach lessons or something?

Good luck in the future anyway.
 
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Thehooperman

Thehooperman

Well-Known Forumite
RowanDraper said:
Absolutely nothing. If it had been, why wouldn’t I have resigned in June or July?
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It's ok you're not an MP
RowanDraper said:
But having a choice between treating someone efficiently and quickly against slow and efficiently I’m always going to say that I want people treated as quickly as possible.
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And that's exactly what's wrong with the NHS, push em out the door as soon as they can and just forget about proper long term treatment....NEXT

At least it keeps the number of "patients treated" stats up, eh?

And by the way the NHS was founded on the principle of good healthcare for all not on how fast and efficient the treatment was!!
 
Tilly

Tilly

Well-Known Forumite
The girl opposite me on the SNCF is clearly smitten

I must polish my head more often
 
RowanDraper

RowanDraper

Well-Known Forumite
I will respond to the other comments tomorrow but I wanted to provide a quick reply to this.

Zylo said:
Heart bleeds, didn't you use your position to make money from public speach lessons or something?

Good luck in the future anyway.
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Thanks but I don’t understand your use of heart bleeds? I left the party because it’s allowing racism to flourish, not because of a selection battle. I’m also not complaining. I’ve given my reasons because that’s what I believe accountable democratic representatives should do.

Forum members have challenged those reasons specifically referring to the politics of the Labour Party. We can discuss and debate those finer points but to be clear I didn’t leave the party because my side of the party wasn’t in ascendancy. I spent 2011 to 2015 under Ed Miliband’s party leadership and he wasn’t from my wing of the party.

I must also say very clearly: I haven’t used my position to make money from public speaking lessons.

I have setup a business that offers those services because I have the skills and experience to do so.

You will find my interests declared on the Council’s website. I have gained no benefit from my membership of the Council in pursuit of my business, and any suggestion otherwise is actionable.
 
RowanDraper

RowanDraper

Well-Known Forumite
joshua said:
Are the "hard left" and the "hard right" rising to power in both parties therefore the creation of a new centerist group made up of both spectrums to find a middle ground is preferable to those mp's and supporters who are concerned about the aggressive stance being taken by the two main parties ?
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Early polling suggests that there is support in the country for a new party in the centre, with the formation of the Independent Group of MPs.

The centre ground is where elections are won and have been for a long time. We need to take the country with us and too much of one side generally doesn’t go down too well if left to their own devices - winter of discontent for Labour and austerity or poll tax for the Tories.

Politics has had some real issues for a number of years and my worry is that Brexit, Corbyn and Teresa May will have broken Politics for a generation unless we can articulate the answers to build trust in people involved in politics.
 
tek-monkey

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
The funny thing is I know a lot of people more interested in politics since they thought they could trust someone, that is why corbyn gained popularity. Nobody trusts a tory to do anything other than what helps tories, and Blair damaged the view of anyone professing to be Labour but with right leaning tendencies.

The media is relentless with its polarisation, its them more than the public you will be fighting if you want a centrist party to succeed. Plus the ingrained wrong lizard voting patterns.
 
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PeterD

PeterD

ST16 Represent.
I think my past posts have shown where my politics lie. That said I will not vote labour under the current leadership. They are now a cult obsessed with an ineffective leader, as for their racism. My life Labour are supposed to be the good guys
 
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c0tt0nt0p

c0tt0nt0p

Well-Known Forumite
tek-monkey said:
The funny thing is I know a lot of people more interested in politics since they thought they could trust someone, that is why corbyn gained popularity.
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Funny thing is I wouldn't trust Corbyn to take my Michael Foot replica donkey jacket to the dry cleaners....
 
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