2019 General Election

Perrier

Banned
That’s not strictly true.
1 .The 1% are NOT the average tax paying public.



2. Approximately 43% of people don’t pay tax at all.


3. There is something very wrong with a society that doesn’t appreciate hard work and success.
Those that have worked hard to achieve, those that have made sacrifices to better themselves.
These people are paying over 40% tax.


4. I fail to understand the logic of wanting high earners to pay more tax instead of encouraging a certain group of society to realise the positivity in going out to work.

1. Thats my point , they just think they are. i call them wannabe tories .

2. i will refer you to point 1.

3. i agree , but please explain what happens to those who actually can't work to better themselves due to illness or disability ?

4. so do i , however i must refer you to point 3 , those that cannot work due to illness or disability , where do they stand ?
 

Carole

Well-Known Forumite
but please explain what happens to those who actually can't work to better themselves due to illness or disability ?

however i must refer you to point 3 , those that cannot work due to illness or disability , where do they stand ?

I’m not sure where you’re going with this.
But to answer the question they should be supported. Isn’t that what the system is there for? To help those who can’t help themselves?
 

Perrier

Banned
I’m not sure where you’re going with this.
But to answer the question they should be supported. Isn’t that what the system is there for? To help those who can’t help themselves?

to be frank , this gov has brought in a system that is very unfair to the sick and disabled.
every question, test and assessment has been designed to fail the claimant where possible ( thats why over 70% are overturned at appeal at court because its looked at again by a panel independent of the gov DWP .)
Those that could work to better themselves but needed a disabled car to get them to work and back for example , are having those taken away to save gov money.
how are they supposed to better themselves when they being disadvantaged by their own gov ?

The other point i was making is that you are right , the 1% are not the average tax paying public , however this society has been divided by this gov so badly that it is frowned upon if someone is being supported by the state .
i agree , 43% of people dont pay tax at all, yet ive heard plenty of those people voice an opinion on those that truly cant.
 

Carole

Well-Known Forumite
I’m not disagreeing with anything that you’ve said @perry081064 but my post wasn’t about whether a system is fair or not fair. It wasn’t even about whether anyone is a Tory or votes Labour or something else.

It was about why there seems to be a culture of distaste from certain people towards those that have achieved.
So instead of saying “Look at him/her with the big house and lovely car. Still, fair play to him, he’s worked hard for it, he deserves it”

It almost seems that there is a hatred of the rich, as in, “look at him, poncy git, why should he have all that, he should be giving it to me”

I was just saying that generally speaking, those that earn more,pay more therefore contribute by paying a huge amount of tax so why the nastiness towards them?
 

Studio Tan

Well-Known Forumite
clarke.jpg
 

Cue

Well-Known Forumite
Anyway the point that I was making was that @Cue said in one of his posts that the average tax payer represented 1% of the country.
I was merely pointing out that 1% are the top high earners not the average earner.

Did I? I said that people suddenly find themselves temporary millionaires when it comes to taxing the rich and ensuring they don’t avoid tax. As in they think that in their lifetime it would affect them on their £40k salary or whatever, when it’s targeting those earning 6 or 7 figures+

http://www.temporarilyembarrassedmillionaires.org/
 

Lucy

Well-Known Forumite
I live a nice lifestyle, I pay my taxes, I understand that I may need to pay more to help those caught in the poverty trap that this country has become.

There will be without doubt people who earn 10x or 100x more than me that pay less tax than I do. That's what I object to, not that they earn what they do, but that they don't pay their way.
 

BobClay

Well-Known Forumite
"There are three kinds of lies. Lies, damned lies and statistics."
This quote is often attributed to Churchill, but it pre-dated him and is generally attributed to Mark Twain, but even that is disputed, it also being attributed to Balfour and Disraeli. (I suspect the habit of borrowing other people's quotes comes naturally to politicians.)
"Statistics is the art of never having to say you're wrong."
Again attributed to all and sundry.
"Figures don't lie, but liars figure …"
"Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable."

Also attributed to Mark Twain. (He was a bit of a laddoe in his day … :heyhey:)
My own personal favourite statistics quotes are:
"42.718% of all statistics are made up on the spot."
“A statistician can have his head in an oven and his feet in ice, and he will say that on the average he feels fine.”

:buddy:
 

Mikinton

Well-Known Forumite
to be frank , this gov has brought in a system that is very unfair to the sick and disabled.
every question, test and assessment has been designed to fail the claimant where possible ( thats why over 70% are overturned at appeal at court because its looked at again by a panel independent of the gov DWP .)
As we've got onto statistics, that 70% figure is pretty meaningless by itself. It could be that 1,000,000 claimants have been assessed as fit for work, 100 decide to contest it, 70 of whom win their case.

And re your point about "wannabe Tories", it's not about having pots of money - I certainly don't and I imagine 99% of Tories don't either. In my case it's more about the approach to life - study well at school, work hard in your job, put into society and be careful not to take too much out*, raise your children to be be responsible citizens and contributors to society.

There's a lot of decisions to be made in life and I don't feel that Labour encourage people to make the right decisions.

* - by "not to take too much out", I mean things like eating healthily, getting plenty of exercise and do what you can to not be a drain on our NHS .... don't have more children than you can afford. etc etc
 
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Gadget

Well-Known Forumite
I typed a long reply to some of this but thought why bother. You all know where I stand and how I feel. I despair at the lack of humanity displayed at times here. One twist of fate and you could find yourself in the same shoes as those you look down your nose at.
 

Lucy

Well-Known Forumite
I typed a long reply to some of this but thought why bother. You all know where I stand and how I feel. I despair at the lack of humanity displayed at times here. One twist of fate and you could find yourself in the same shoes as those you look down your nose at.
We are as a race taught to look down at those less fortunate than ourselves and hold those that are 'posh' and well spoken on a pedestal. It's one of the reasons why we're in such a mess.

I know one day I might lose my job and struggle to get a new one. Or I might get sick and it not be covered on the health insurance I'm very lucky to have. It's important to be humble.
 

BobClay

Well-Known Forumite
I watched on the news the other night the lady in the east of the country whose shop, and home above it, had been devastated by flooding. The insurance had inserted a clause in her policy to avoid paying out over flooding. She was crying .. her whole world devastated.

So f*** statistics, and the politicians and the rich who ride on the back of that horse.
 

Mikinton

Well-Known Forumite
I watched on the news the other night the lady in the east of the country whose shop, and home above it, had been devastated by flooding. The insurance had inserted a clause in her policy to avoid paying out over flooding. She was crying .. her whole world devastated.

So f*** statistics, and the politicians and the rich who ride on the back of that horse.
Did she say what the extra cost would have been to have the clause removed?
 

BobClay

Well-Known Forumite
Maybe, I don't remember her saying that. But however you look at that …. it's bullshit. Insurance was about a club that got together to help people who got caught out by circumstance, not for making f****** profit for bloodsuckers, (you know, like the Stock Exchange, originally designed for helping to finance good ideas, admittedly with a slight gamble,) but that has developed into 'short selling' and 'hedge funds' designed to fatten out offshore bank accounts of parasites.
You may have heard of one, the uncle of Staffords to be MP.
 

Mikinton

Well-Known Forumite
The point I'm making is that everything comes at a cost. In this instance, if you can get insurance to cover your home against flooding, (I'm assuming) it'll be way more expensive than a policy that didn't cover you against flooding. Either pay for the extra cover or pay the lower amount and keep your fingers crossed. Your decision.

My daughter recently bought travel insurance for her trip to Canada, where she's now working. She had to decide whether or not to buy the cover that included insurance against medical bills. The costs of the two options were significantly different. She chose to buy the extra cover. Her decision.

One area of insurance where you don't get a choice about your level of cover is, of course ........ National Insurance.

(But I would agree that "short selling" is evil .... but isn't that effectively what bookmakers do. Gambling is effectively about someone "going short" and inviting someone else to say they're wrong.)
 
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Perrier

Banned
I’m not disagreeing with anything that you’ve said @perry081064 but my post wasn’t about whether a system is fair or not fair. It wasn’t even about whether anyone is a Tory or votes Labour or something else.

It was about why there seems to be a culture of distaste from certain people towards those that have achieved.
So instead of saying “Look at him/her with the big house and lovely car. Still, fair play to him, he’s worked hard for it, he deserves it”

It almost seems that there is a hatred of the rich, as in, “look at him, poncy git, why should he have all that, he should be giving it to me”

I was just saying that generally speaking, those that earn more,pay more therefore contribute by paying a huge amount of tax so why the nastiness towards them?

Ok , point taken that you wasnt posting whether a system was fair or not.
As you said though , theres a system to help those that need it , i was just advising that system is failing.

It isnt that theres a hatred of the rich , again its whats wrong in society .

theres also becoming a hatred of those that cannot work due to illness and disability that until recently was even being discriminated against by the government as mental illness wasnt deemed an acceptable reason to to be given mobility help.
The government lost that case and are having to reassess 1000's of people who should have had that assistance in the first place.

years ago , with again another tory government , one parent families were being sectioned out as some sort of vermin also.

i agree with you that if it wasnt for the people that do have to pay more in tax and indeed those that pay tax at all , my wife would be struggling to survive and therefor i would be the last to ridicule them.
My point was simply that there is a section of people that yes ,can and do work , however dont pay any tax at all that seem to think its ok to complain about those who cant ( not wont) .
 

Perrier

Banned
As we've got onto statistics, that 70% figure is pretty meaningless by itself. It could be that 1,000,000 claimants have been assessed as fit for work, 100 decide to contest it, 70 of whom win their case.

And re your point about "wannabe Tories", it's not about having pots of money - I certainly don't and I imagine 99% of Tories don't either. In my case it's more about the approach to life - study well at school, work hard in your job, put into society and be careful not to take too much out*, raise your children to be be responsible citizens and contributors to society.

There's a lot of decisions to be made in life and I don't feel that Labour encourage people to make the right decisions.

* - by "not to take too much out", I mean things like eating healthily, getting plenty of exercise and do what you can to not be a drain on our NHS .... don't have more children than you can afford. etc etc

agreed , with all elections , statistics are meaningless . they are manipulated to mean whatever suits the party at the time.
im not following the stats regarding the assessment tribunals , the amount of time it takes to get one is well over 1 year now and that speaks for itself.

No , its not about pots of money and your approach to life is spot on.
But for those who cant ( not wont ) i dont feel the conservatives are helping those with difficulties to remain in the workplace.
Socal care has been ripped apart under the tories and the burden doesnt go away , it goes back to the NHS to manage with even less resources that they had before.
 
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