The moral argument of eating meat & dairy

henryscat

Well-Known Forumite
I would guess they are also the nations that consume the most fatty and sugary processed foods. Which I would again guess make up a much bigger proportion of the average obese persons diet than meat and dairy do.

Consumption of sugary foods is definitely a problem too, particuarly where high fructose corn syrup is being used in great quantity. A big proportion of fatty foods, especially saturated fat, are meat or dairy based though.
 

Lunar Scorpion

Anarchy in the UK
Am I right in thinking you can still get obese on a vegan diet as I know a number of vegetarians who are quite cuddly.
I've lost a few pounds since going vegan... Unless you eat chips constantly I think it's impossible to become obese as a vegan and some vegetarians eat way too much cheese, which is probably why they are overweight. Another, often overlooked, factor is alcohol - give it up and I can pretty much guarantee you'll lose weight. Also, 'cuddly' and 'obese' is not quite the same thing. So there!
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
The key words there are "on average". An difference in averages of that scale is pretty significant.

Yup, the average vegan can also be a fat bloater. I'd put money on the people at the top end of the scale all being junk food addicts as well as carnivores, but that really wouldn't help your point so I'm sure you'll ignore it.

It isn't just meat consumption that's relevant - it's dairy and eggs too.

I eat cheese, but thats about it for eggs and dairy.

Weight is linked to health. If you are overweight or obese, that is by definition unhealthy.

Define overweight and obese? Only references I saw used BMI, and you can be built like a brick ****house and still classed as obese on that scale.
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
Nope, the challenge is on meat and dairy munchers to justify their animal consumption.

Our entire history has been one of eating meat, you can call it evolution or you can say it was divine interference but we have always eaten meat. Our teeth are designed for it, our bodies are designed for it, we are meant to eat meat. Vegan/Vegetarianism can be seen as nothing more than another small fad in the long history of consuming flesh, yet you seem to think its me that has to justify myself? You want people to change, you can't ask that without giving reasons. Blind belief is for the weak willed, so man up and explain yourself or admit you made a post you can't back up.

It is a big part of it. And dairy.

Don't eat much dairy so can't really comment, but my GF loves cheese but is far from fat.

No there aren't. Some meat or fish is possibly healthier than another, but they are not in themselves "very healthy".

So what is unhealthy about a skinless chicken breast? Or a trimmed steak for that matter? In moderation none of these things cause problems, gluttony and laziness do. I believe these traits are not confined to those with a carnivorous diet?

Specifically which nutrients are they?

On the subject of nutrients a lot of people consuming meat and dairy are vastly overconsuming certain nutrients. For example, a lot of people who consume dairy are taking in far too much calcium.

What are your main sources of protein? Plus iron, omega 3 etc. I know you can get them from non-animal foods, but they are a lot more difficult to balance. Plus I'm not convinced you can get all you need from local sources, all year round?

Does people you have met constitute a statistically significant sample? I would say not. Don't lump veggies and vegans together either. Whilst in general a vegetarian diet is healthier, vegetarians are still consuming dairy which is not healthy and still consuming eggs full of cholesterol.

They constitute exactly 100% of the people I've met, not really sure I can include those I haven't met yet as I wouldn't know their details?

If the first part of that statement is factually correct, then regardless of waist size your diet is not balanced.

I can hold a burger in both hands? What I meant was the vast majority of meals I have contain meat, of course I eat veggies too but I like some meat with most meals. You seem to think all carnivores just wolf down steaks and McDonalds all day, most eat properly.

There's no shortage of such scientific studies. Go and read a few..... I'm sure you can use a search engine as well as I can.

So you can't back it up then. You sound rather like a religious nut, believe in me but don't expect me to prove a thing.
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
I've lost a few pounds since going vegan... Unless you eat chips constantly I think it's impossible to become obese as a vegan and some vegetarians eat way too much cheese, which is probably why they are overweight. Another, often overlooked, factor is alcohol - give it up and I can pretty much guarantee you'll lose weight. Also, 'cuddly' and 'obese' is not quite the same thing. So there!

Out of interest, how much has your outlook on your diet changed? Now you have to think about what you can and can't eat, do you also find yourself thinking about the healthy aspects of the food more than you would have done? I'm a firm believer that most fat people are fat because they aren't even aware of how bad some of the food they eat is, and won't look into it. You can often find 2 meals that are just as tasty, but one is half the fat. Just knowing this could make you sway towards the healthier one more often, helping reduce weight whilst not necessarily losing out on anything else.

As for the alcohol, I drink way to much but the only place I seem to put on weight is my neck!
 

db

#chaplife
Does people you have met constitute a statistically significant sample? I would say not.

given that you are in a minority of 1 (possible 2) in this thread, do you constitute a statistically significant sample? i would say not..

I'm sure you can use a search engine as well as I can.

if that's the case, why not use your awesome google-fu and prove him wrong? you have refused to provide any evidence other than your personal opinion, whereas tek has clearly providing links and quoted studies/research..

Nope, the challenge is on meat and dairy munchers to justify their animal consumption.

in your opinion.. you can't deny that the vast majority of people are "meat and dairy munchers" (or can you? you probably will, then tell someone to JFGI for proof :roll: ), ergo the "challenge" is on the minority to justify why they hold their minority beliefs..

i can't believe i'm responding to a henry scat post again - will i never learn?? lol
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
I only did it cos I'm at work and was waiting for a server to reboot!

Anyway, as I said earlier if you want me to change you need to give me a reason. I can't see a single study that says veganism is a more important health benefit than simply paying attention to what you eat. You want to draw a nice line between flesh devourers and yourself and claim the moral high ground, when statistically you have absolutely **** all evidence to back you up.

Of course you can back up anything with bad statistics, did you know that white people are on average fatter than black people? And gay men usually have much nicer houses than straight men so anal sex must improve your ability to use a hoover?

EDIT: Oh **** the server hasn't come back up!
 
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db

#chaplife
Of course you can back up anything with bad statistics, did you know that white people are on average fatter than black people? And gay men usually have much nicer houses than straight men so anal sex must improve your ability to use a hoover?

well, i am cuddly & good with a hoover
fpXkL.gif
 

henryscat

Well-Known Forumite
Our entire history has been one of eating meat, you can call it evolution or you can say it was divine interference but we have always eaten meat.

Eating meat in any significant quantity is actually a relatively modern phenomenon, late 20th century-ish onwards. Historically, people's diets have not been predominantly meat based.

Our teeth are designed for it, our bodies are designed for it, we are meant to eat meat.

Not really. If you were "meant" to eat meat, you wouldn't require to cook any of it. Compare a human digestive system to that of a carnivore and you'll see that the human digestive system isn't particuarly well suited to eating meat at all.

Vegan/Vegetarianism can be seen as nothing more than another small fad in the long history of consuming flesh, yet you seem to think its me that has to justify myself?

Very narrow and naive view to take... A lot of movements were no doubt deemed to be a "fad" and a minority when they started - like abolition of slavery, and allowing women the vote.

It is for those who consume animals and animal products to justify themselves - you are participating in a mass holocaust of various animal species, those who abstain are not.

You want people to change, you can't ask that without giving reasons. Blind belief is for the weak willed, so man up and explain yourself or admit you made a post you can't back up.

Knowledge and understanding is something you need to seek for yourself, it isn't always up to others to spell it out for you....


So what is unhealthy about a skinless chicken breast? Or a trimmed steak for that matter?

What's healthy about it?

In moderation none of these things cause problems, gluttony and laziness do. I believe these traits are not confined to those with a carnivorous diet?

Yes, over consumption is a problem, but it would appear that over consumption occurs on a bigger scale amongst those with animal based diets. And yes, laziness is a problem - because people don't get off their arse and exercise anywhere near enough, not least because of driving everywhere.

What are your main sources of protein?

Not from animals.

I can hold a burger in both hands? What I meant was the vast majority of meals I have contain meat, of course I eat veggies too but I like some meat with most meals. You seem to think all carnivores just wolf down steaks and McDonalds all day, most eat properly.

If everyone who said they ate properly actually did then we wouldn't be a nation with a serious obesity problem. If the vast majority of meals you eat do contain meat, that still doesn't strike me as balanced.

So you can't back it up then. You sound rather like a religious nut, believe in me but don't expect me to prove a thing.

As you well know I've backed up what I say on countless occasions, I'm not obliged to repeat myself - you can find out things for yourself and search previous posts if you really want.
 

andy w

Well-Known Forumite
I fully respect vegans/veggies beliefs and decision to follow the diet they choose, can I ask the non meat eaters on here if they are as genorous to us meat eaters.
 

United57

Well-Known Forumite
With all the fuss going on I thought I would see if vegetarians live longer than meat eaters. Oddly ther are not too many studies. Some of those that were done failed the control tests so findings were not conclusive.

I did see this "Russians of the Caucasus mountains live to great ages on a diet of fatty pork and whole raw milk products. The Hunzas, also known for their robust health and longevity, eat substantial portions of goat's milk which has a higher saturated fat content than cow's milk. In contrast, the largely vegetarian Hindus of southern India have the shortest life-spans in the world, partly because of a lack of food, but also because of a distinct lack of animal protein in their diets"

A lot of the problem with obesity is not the meat its the pastry, saturated fats, the use of corn syrup and lack of exercise!
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
All the fundamental points were covered...

Not really, you ignored some and gave minimal answers that addressed nothing to others. You basically only gave real answers to the points that forward your own agenda. I'm still not convinced veganism is a diet that could even sustain life if not for importing foodstuffs and taking supplements, making it far from natural.

Like I said, its an almost religious thing. People don't believe stuff without reason unless they are dumb, you have given no reason so I see no reason to believe. You want us to change, I don't care if you eat lentils yet you seem to care that I eat animals.
 

henryscat

Well-Known Forumite
Not really, you ignored some and gave minimal answers that addressed nothing to others.

Specifically what then?

I'm still not convinced veganism is a diet that could even sustain life if not for importing foodstuffs and taking supplements, making it far from natural.

The UK imports 40% of its food, the whole nation relies on imports, which makes food security something of an issue for everyone. You are being disingenuous to try and single out anybody's dietary choice as being reliant on food imports - the whole nation is...

Taking supplements is not necessary to be healthy on a vegan diet.

What is "natural"? You consume dairy which is baby food for cows - you are neither a baby nor bovine, so is that natural?

Like I said, its an almost religious thing.

There's an interesting parallel to be had by how people bring up their children to believe in a particular religion and how they bring them believing eating meat is the right thing, without reference to any facts. If you're going to band that one around then think about it first...

you have given no reason so I see no reason to believe

You know full well I have, both in this thread and others. I back up my views hell of a lot more than a lot of people on here . Whether you agree with what I put is obviously another question - I don't expect you to agree; but please don't insult people's intelligence with "you have given no reason".
 
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