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Wanted: puppy
- Thread starter Bob
- Start date
Bob
Well-Known Forumite
I haven't said anything to suggest otherwise, my comment was simply my opinion that a loveable and happy dog is worth more to me than a piece of paper detailing breeding lines, some people like designer handbags, others are happy with anything that can carry the items they need, it's all down to personal preference, that's all.
kyoto49
Well-Known Forumite
But why not rescue a dog otherwise doomed to a life of god knows what? Why pay people for a breed when thousands of healthy dogs are put down every year. In the UK they are Staffies in the main, but in Spain they have kill shelters that literally put down every single dog not claimed after 7 days no matter what age/size/breed. Why would anyone not want to save a life? Having a pedigree dog means inbreeding, increased risk of genital defects and illnesses and a great initial cost to buy the thing. Plus, why would anyone want a dog the same as everyone else's!!! Baffling !
kyoto49
Well-Known Forumite
Sadly he was rescued out of the bin by English people in Spain as an 8 week old pup (approx) so only knows English, no hablo espanol (like me!!)
kyoto49
Well-Known Forumite
The rescue I deal with charges £250 for a puppy that is fully vaccinated, wormed, fleaed and has a fully valid pet passport. To fulfil the criteria fr the passport costs c£200 pound so I think this is an absolute bargain. Why would anyone pay for a mongrel puppy when the rescues regularly have them if u are prepared to wait?
Jonah
Spouting nonsense since the day I learned to talk
Proper breeders know all about bloodlines and don't put dogs who are related together. Puppy farmers do and that is the route of a lot of problems.
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kyoto49
Well-Known Forumite
Pedigree dogs are all IN bred and puppy farmers are not the reason, no matter how many tiems you blame puppy farms for everything. Amyone who breeds a pefigree dog is inbreeding. Some breeds are worse than others
"The researchers' analysis showed that, for example, Boxer dogs were so closely related to one another and had such little genetic variation between them that genetically, 20,000 dogs looked like a population of about 70. In the Rough Collie breed, 12,000 dogs looked in genetic terms like a population of about 50."
http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_15-8-2008-12-22-2
Further:
Many of Britain's most popular dog breeds could be extinct within 50 years because they are so inbred, vets have warned.
Some pedigrees are suffering from a range of worsening health problems because they are being bred from a shrinking gene pool in an effort to create the most sought-after physical characteristics.
Many breeds will die out as a result of hereditary diseases, the vets warn.
Emma Milne, the television vet who will address the British Veterinary Association on the subject next week, said: "If things carry on as they are, within 50 years many breeds will not survive. There are breeds with massive welfare problems that are in dire need of action.
"The constant refinements made by this kind of breeding mean they have become cartoon caricatures of what dogs used to be."
Ms Milne, who starred in the long-running series Vets in Practice, said animals were now having to be put down because of hereditary diseases, which had become widespread.
"This isn't natural. They are not really viable breeds but are being artificially maintained. A lot would die if they were not treated. If it carries on like this, veterinary intervention will not be able to save some of them."
Of the more than 200 pedigree breeds in Britain, most now have problems with hereditary diseases.
Among those most at risk are breeds such as the bulldog, which suffers from breathing problems, and shar peis, which are bred with twice as much skin as necessary, and suffer from chronic infections.
Both breeds cost about £1,000 a puppy. The average price for pedigrees is £600.
Dachshunds are increasingly prone to arthritis, because they are bred to have longer bodies and shorter legs, while Yorkshire terriers often need orthopaedic surgery to fix dislocated knees.
Deafness is now common in dalmatians, because the deafness gene is linked to the shape of the spots, for which they are bred.
While great danes and Irish wolfhounds, selectively bred for their massive sizes, have been left susceptible to heart disease and bone cancer and are lucky to live to seven.
Of the two most popular breeds, labrador retrievers suffer from three different hereditary joint problems, six eye and two heart conditions, while English cocker spaniels have five eye and four heart conditions, as well as kidney disease.
A new association has been set up to push for reform of the pedigree dog system.
The Pets Parliament has been established to secure ratification of the European Convention for the Protection of Pet Animals, which has already been signed by more than 20 countries.
The convention highlights a list of breed characteristics that need to be modified for the dogs' best interests and also bans breeding if the two animals share a grandparent.
The move could see some breeds disappear, and alter significantly in appearance, and the move is being resisted by the Kennel Club, which currently registers pedigrees.
Holly Lee, from the Kennel Club, said: "We're aware of the inherited health problems but we're the best placed to deal with them."
Jonah
Spouting nonsense since the day I learned to talk
That link is 8 years old.
And yes I do realise how bad things have been but I believe that things have changed with responsible breeders. Some bad practices by irresponsible breeders are taking longer to get rid of unfortunately especially with breeds which command a huge price. Whatever you say about puppy farms not being a cause, they are.
You and I will never see eye to eye about this so it will be best to let Bob continue the search for a puppy without us disagreeing about things.
And yes I do realise how bad things have been but I believe that things have changed with responsible breeders. Some bad practices by irresponsible breeders are taking longer to get rid of unfortunately especially with breeds which command a huge price. Whatever you say about puppy farms not being a cause, they are.
You and I will never see eye to eye about this so it will be best to let Bob continue the search for a puppy without us disagreeing about things.
wmrcomputers
Stafford PC & laptop repair specialist
I couldn't agree more. My wife is a registered breeder, although only on occasions and she doesn't have more than 1 bitch to breed from. Our bitches are only allowed a couple of litters and are (more importantly) family pets too. She has one lady that now owns two of our pups from seperate litters which have both gone on to be "care dogs" that visit elderly patients in care homes etc. We get regular updates and pictures of them which is lovely. Her vet commented that the first pup she had from us was one of the healthiest of the breed that he had ever seen and could tell how much effort had been put into her - hence the lady returning for another from us at a later date. Most of our other pups owners also keep us in the loop too.
The re-homing thing is a sad situation that has been discussed on here before, but I have to agree with @Bob that the best way is to start with a pup that you can raise knowing the full history of and create a family pet for life, especially when having younger children. Puppies at re-homing places VERY rarely exist, so it does come down to buying from a breeder. If @Bob wants a puppy that she can raise this way for these reasons, that doesn't mean it's her fault (or anyone that does the same) that the re-homing places are packed out with older dogs. That's the fault of irresponsible breeders and in particular the ones that breed those types of dogs that are used as a short term "status symbol" etc. Of course it goes without saying that I praise those who are in the position to re-home an unwanted dog and improve it's life.Most re-homing places usually only like to re-home 90% of their dogs to people without children due to not knowing the animals history - hence another reason why it's not suitable for families like ourselves and bob.
The term "breeder" is commonly misused as to refer to anyone who lets a dog get pregnant. To us, a breeder is a responsible person who chooses to breed their dog in a controlled manner looking out for the health of the mother and the pups at all times. Someone with a vet on-call and a good knowledge of what to do when things don't go as planned. Selling pups for a high price isn't always about "doing it for the money" either. A breeder that does things properly has expenses, but more importantly the price set for these pets helps to ensure that they are going to homes who can financially afford to be responsible owners. It's another reason why even mongrel pups now sell for around £200+. If they were sold at £50 it doesn't mean that every new owner would be an irresponsible owner, but it certainly increases the risk of buyers that can't be ar**d with them 6 months down the line. Too cheap and it also encourages profiteers and the poor animals get shifted from pillar to post.
Bob certainly would be looking for a pet for life anyway. I can vouch for their 11 year old (really?!) pooch personally - how is the old lad anyway? Hurry up and download a bad virus so that I can drop in to see him
(kidding of course)
Gramaisc
Forum O. G.
Can't move for kids in your house.....
wmrcomputers
Stafford PC & laptop repair specialist
It's fairly spacious.... after 9pm!
kyoto49
Well-Known Forumite
As I've already pointed out, there are literally thousands of unwanted beautiful puppies needing homes in Spain, small ones, fluffy ones, pure bred ones, the lot. You'd have been more accurate in saying the puppies at re-homing places always exist!!! It just takes a little bit more effort and requires a little more patience.
Nonsense, they will rehome character assessed dogs to the right home. Puppies will always be homed with the right family, kids or not. What is true is that rescues are reluctant to home rescue dogs of any sort with kids of crawling age, but it's more because the parents have enough on their plate with young kids and shouldn't be adding a puppy in to the mix!!!
I can assure you that cost of a puppy has absolutely no bearing on how well it will be looked after. If this was true then there would never be pedigree expensively bred dogs in rescue, and there would be no need for hundreds of the 'breed' specific rescues. Cost of dog has no bearing on a persons ability or DESIRE to look after it. One of my friends is the chief co-ordinator of Rhodesian Ridgeback rescue. Thes dogs cost any thing up to £1500 and rarely get bred by anyone but people who fulfil your criteria of a breeder, yet she gets hundreds of dogs in every year and some of the stories she can tell about the treatment and neglect of these gorgeous creatures make ones eyes water
. I'm sorry but you are deluded if you think people who buy dogs at great expense are more likely to look after them. They are still seen as disposable when people get bored of them for whatever reason. The pedigree dog breeding world should disgust us all with the genetic faults, over breeding, ill health, and profiteering. Don't breed and buy while dogs die could never be more apt!
Hopefully @Bob will find a wonderful rescue puppy and save a life
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kyoto49
Well-Known Forumite
I don't mind disagreeing! No, puppy farmers only breed a limited numbers of breeds, the common ones that sell well to the stupid and idiotic who don't even realise they are buying from a puppy farm
, cockerpoos, labradoodles, westies, shitzu's, boxers, mini scnauzers, etc etc. They don't breed Flat coat retrievers, which suffer from far higher cancer rates than other breeds, for example. All pedigree breeds, of whch puppy farmers only chose a few, are inbred and have a higher propensity to get ill or have terrible afflictions caused by generations of inbreeding for a certain physical characteristic. it is the show world that is to blame for much of this, not puppy farmers. The only pure bred dogs worth their salt are the working ones, working Labs, working collies, where appearance means nothing but health and ability to work are everythiing.
Bob
Well-Known Forumite
After Henryscat - kitten gate from a couple of years ago, I've been reluctant to get drawn in to this debate, I have my own opinions, as does everybody else.
I don't want to buy from a breeder, that's my choice, I don't need to be lectured about it as if I'm a naughty child who wont eat their vegetables.
I like the idea of pets free to good homes, with the emphasis on 'good' our collie was free, well sort of, we lent something to a farmer and got a puppy in return, I'm not suggesting this arrangement would work for everyone but it suited us. Our chickens were given to us by @Roland and cats from the cats protection league, our goldfish used to belong to a friend.
One of my ponies is from a rescue, he's a 21 year old Shetland, good for nothing and a grumpy old sod but we love him and he will end his days with us, my other pony is on loan, she's proving to be too much for my daughter and she will be going back to her owner, that is an arrangement we've had from the beginning, standard loan terms that are there to protect both parties but mostly to protect the animal, she will go onto a home where she can thrive and we can find a pony to love who has a more suitable temperament for a child.
For whatever reason sometimes people take on an animal which is unsuitable,. whether they are irresponsible, or rushed into it, death, illness, a change in personal or financial circumstances, if the animal was not as decribed or any number of other reasons what should happen to the animal then? People preach about dogs dumped in rescue places but what is the alternative, years of neglect, abuse, starvation, being shut in for days/week/years on end staying in a home where people can't/wont give them the love, care or attention they deserve, is it not better that they go to a place where they can have a chance at a better life.
If responsible breeders are concerned about the welfare of the pup, why do they not offer loan terms and contracts as is standard with horses? If circumstances change they can go back and be rehomed from the breeder, but the pup has lost all it value after a couple of months and then it becomes about the money. Its a shame.
As for expenses, if all goes well with the pregnancy and delivery, 5 beautiful, healthy labradoodles arrive from a family pet, what are the expenses? Fleaing, worming, microchipping, a bit of extra food for mum, a vet check even if you said £250 which seems to be more than enough, why sell for £750 a pup if it's not abut the money? What is that £3,500 about? If you do it for the love of the dogs why not sell for £50 a pup with a home check before and 2 weeks later?
My opinion is that the money and the price is the problem, if there were no money in breeding the only people doing it would be those that do it for the love of it.
I don't want to buy from a breeder, that's my choice, I don't need to be lectured about it as if I'm a naughty child who wont eat their vegetables.
I like the idea of pets free to good homes, with the emphasis on 'good' our collie was free, well sort of, we lent something to a farmer and got a puppy in return, I'm not suggesting this arrangement would work for everyone but it suited us. Our chickens were given to us by @Roland and cats from the cats protection league, our goldfish used to belong to a friend.
One of my ponies is from a rescue, he's a 21 year old Shetland, good for nothing and a grumpy old sod but we love him and he will end his days with us, my other pony is on loan, she's proving to be too much for my daughter and she will be going back to her owner, that is an arrangement we've had from the beginning, standard loan terms that are there to protect both parties but mostly to protect the animal, she will go onto a home where she can thrive and we can find a pony to love who has a more suitable temperament for a child.
For whatever reason sometimes people take on an animal which is unsuitable,. whether they are irresponsible, or rushed into it, death, illness, a change in personal or financial circumstances, if the animal was not as decribed or any number of other reasons what should happen to the animal then? People preach about dogs dumped in rescue places but what is the alternative, years of neglect, abuse, starvation, being shut in for days/week/years on end staying in a home where people can't/wont give them the love, care or attention they deserve, is it not better that they go to a place where they can have a chance at a better life.
If responsible breeders are concerned about the welfare of the pup, why do they not offer loan terms and contracts as is standard with horses? If circumstances change they can go back and be rehomed from the breeder, but the pup has lost all it value after a couple of months and then it becomes about the money. Its a shame.
As for expenses, if all goes well with the pregnancy and delivery, 5 beautiful, healthy labradoodles arrive from a family pet, what are the expenses? Fleaing, worming, microchipping, a bit of extra food for mum, a vet check even if you said £250 which seems to be more than enough, why sell for £750 a pup if it's not abut the money? What is that £3,500 about? If you do it for the love of the dogs why not sell for £50 a pup with a home check before and 2 weeks later?
My opinion is that the money and the price is the problem, if there were no money in breeding the only people doing it would be those that do it for the love of it.
kyoto49
Well-Known Forumite
One final point from me after reading @Bob s very sensible post, no-one should breed any animal unless they can take it back should the new owners come in to difficult times. Everyone who breeds any animal should only do so if they can potentially take every single animal they breed back at any point. If you can't do that then you shouldn't be breeding. The person who bought these creatures in to this world, and made a handsome stash of cash has a moral responsibility to have any animal they breed returned to them. If anyone doesn't have the space for this then they shouldn't be breeding
wmrcomputers
Stafford PC & laptop repair specialist
That isn't what I said. I actually said that charging a low price wouldn't mean that they would be an irresponsible owner, but it does increase the risk of them not being arsed down the line.
If we sold a litter of pups at £50 they would be sold within 24 hours - all to people that have barely had to walk a few streets probably. Some of those new owners would have possible used their weeks JSA to buy it. If that animal needed expensive veterinary treatment in it's life, then it's possible therefore that it would be left to suffer. When we sell our pups at similar prices that most breeders charge, we have people that travel hundreds of miles.... because the cost of doing so is not of importance to them. If they can raise this kind of money to own the animal, then the chances are that they have a good income. Those with a good income are more likely to rush their pet to a vet if the need arises.
I'm not saying that giving a dog away or charging very little for it means that an owner will not give a shit. @Bob is proof of that very fact and if I were a dog then I'd love to have a family like that. However, the increased risks are present with SOME new owners if the dog doesn't cost them much in the first place. At £50 it's likely to become a rushed decision that they jump on without thinking through the long run of owning a dog. At £400 the decision to own isn't going to be taken as lightly, and pretty much noone is likely to spend that kind of money on a whim.
Just one more little fact. My wife has bred dogs. All of those dogs are still with the original owners that purchased them from her. They all paid "breeders prices" for want of a better word, and all have fantastic lifes with great homes. They send us pictures and keep us updated because they know we care about them as much as they do. 3 litters - number of dogs ended up requiring rehoming = ZERO. It's not registered breeders filling up dog rehoming places. It's people selling dogs at £50 just to "get shut of them" and those that breed short term status symbol dogs like Staffies.
As for your arguments about kennels not rehoming dogs with families with young children - I'm sorry but I spoke from experience. 3 rehoming places refused us several dogs because they said it was too high risk not knowing the animals background and us having children. Nothing to do with crawling toddlers.
kyoto49
Well-Known Forumite
Surely as a responsible breeder you would do all the due diligence and vetting of potential owners so this couldn't possible happen no? Or do you just sell your pups to anyone that can afford them? Selling for £50 does NOT mean worse homes if you ensure they homes are appropriate and do thorough home checks. Of course, you wouldn't make a nice packet this way!
Utter b/s. As I already pointed out and you conveniently chose to ignore, Ridgebacks are around £1000 each, and only bred by responsible breeders, yet they have a big problem with the sheer number of dogs they find need rescuing. Cost of the pup in no way reduces the chances of sh*t owners. Every single pedigree breed, no matter how expensive the pups has an issue with people who purchase a pup for all the wrong reasons without thinking it through. Cost of puppy has no bearing on this. As I said, cheap puppies only equal shit owners if the breeder of these puppies doesn't do throrough and comprehensive home and backround checks. Infact, I'd argue the reverse is true. Breeders assume that if someone is paying a lot of money for a puppy then it's a given that they will have researched the breeds requirements and commitment required to own a dog and as a result DON'T do all the required checks.
'So what.... You think Afghan hounds, Borzoi's, St Bernards, Bedlngton Terriers, Corgi's, Chow Chows, Finnish Spitz, Giant Schnauzers etc etc etc have breed rescue's because people sell them for £50? The only logical conclusion I can come to is you are in denial. Clearly whatever breed of dog that is the latest fashion item sadly has issues with over breeding, but the vast majority of these puppies are bred by pet owners who have failed to do all the required health checks and are just out to make a fast buck, but this is limited to a few breeds. Currently Staffs, and those designer mongrels, previously Boxers, Rotties and Dobes. it doesn't explain the hundreds of brred rescues out there who only rescue thier own breeds.
I was talking about puppies, which is after all what @Bob is trying to find........she doesn't want an adult with unknown provenance. I personally was able to rehome from one of the Greyhound Rescues an 8 week old Greyhound when my child was young. The rescue were concerned with whether I met ALL the criteria to offer the dog a good home for the totality of its life, not just me having a young child. They checked on fence height, garden security, previous dog experience, working hours, exercise area's, other pets, all sorts of things. I got her for free on the promise I would spey her at my own cost. And guess what, even though she was free she had a fantastic home until she died age 11. By your reasoning she was definitely a guaranteed candidate for going in to rescue
wmrcomputers
Stafford PC & laptop repair specialist
And again you've twisted what I've said. At no point have I said that a free dog was GUARANTEED to end up in rescue. We'll just agree to disagree as I'm not going to continue the argument with you.And guess what, even though she was free she had a fantastic home until she died age 11. By your reasoning she was definitely a guaranteed candidate for going in to rescue
