Drug laws - Do Nice People Take Drugs?

tek-monkey said:

That hasn't factored in second hand smoke. If one non-smoker becomes ill from that, they don't pay enough. This also only covers direct medical costs, you still have the millions of fag buts thrown on the floor every year to clean up (why don't smokers think litter laws apply to them?). Then you have the horrible smell that comes from smokers clothes.....

I'm an ex-smoker, tcan't you tell!

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By the same token, if someone gets cancer as a result of breathing in the sulphur ridden fumes from the rear of your motorcycle, the tax you pay on that will always be too little

tek-monkey said:

That hasn't factored in second hand smoke. If one non-smoker becomes ill from that, they don't pay enough.

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Smoking ban is based on bad science.

tek-monkey said:

This also only covers direct medical costs, you still have the millions of fag buts thrown on the floor every year to clean up (why don't smokers think litter laws apply to them?). Then you have the horrible smell that comes from smokers clothes.....

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Personally, I always try and avoid leaving cig butts visible. If they can't be thrown down the drain, I throw them in the bin. (Putting them out first, obv.)
Smell; this is why I smoke flavoured tobacco.

tek-monkey said:

I'm an ex-smoker, tcan't you tell!

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Always the most vocal, in my experience.

shoes said:

By the same token, if someone gets cancer as a result of breathing in the sulphur ridden fumes from the rear of your motorcycle, the tax you pay on that will always be too little

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Be hard, poor thing never gets used anymore

How come, do you walk to work these days?

Yup, no point riding. I can walk it in 15 mins, gets me some exercise, fresh air, and I don't get to work wearing a ton of kevlar and having to get changed! Got a pushbike on the road, but been too tired these last few days to use it. Working 2 jobs can suck a bit, project nearly over though!

Anyone who disagrees with the Drug laws in this country are Junky farking scum!

They should be rounded up and forced-fed passages from the bible! The godless son of bitches!

shoes said:

Jimbo said:

You are so far off the mark by saying 'growing pot' is harmless.

The vast majority of Cannabis is grown in 'farms'. Set-ups in houses, industrial premises are literally worth 10's of millions of pounds. These farms need gardners. Not your nice bloke from down the local allotments, but illegal immigrants, smuggled into the country, locked inside houses which are dangerous (abstracted electrcity, surrounded by harmful chemicals in a very humid environment). I'm not sure its harmless to them.

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You're describing a green house. Millions of people spend a lot of time in their green house with no problem at all

Jimbo said:

Then you have the blokes running this kind of thing. Organised criminal gangs involved in all sorts of other crime (think Firearms/people trafficking/other drugs/fraud/terrorism) are hardly 'harmless' to the communities they live within.

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I think you might be confusing pot with crack cocaine.

Jimbo said:

And of course you have the effects on the user. Despite what you might thing, Mental Health hospitals are inundated with people because of this drug

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Which has of course been proven without doubt is the drug's fault and not merely a deeper underlying problem which has been unrooted due to cannabis use?!

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TBF to Jimbo there are problems with ‘home-grown’ production that he describes. Growing for personal consumption is clearly different, harmless even, but would presumably be subject to the same penalty.

From what i understand, shoes is quite right and the relationship between use and mental health problems is not as clear cut as Jimbo says. The consensus seems to be that use exacerbates existing problems and that use in your teens is likely to have an associated risk factor that is not as relevant in adulthood.

As far as I’m concerned, both of these reasons argue the case for legalization rather than carrying on this ridiculous ‘War on Drugs’.

Legalise it and all the problems Jimbo mentioned go away. Apart from the mental health one admittedly, but maybe its just that mental people like drugs? Why does it have to be the weed causing the issue, the weed could in fact be used as an early pointer to mental illness?

There are personality issues about drug use of all types, I'm sure. I have never known an alcoholic who wasn't also a smoker, for example. That's not necessarily a universal law, just my observation.

I don't smoke, but I am technically an alcoholic. Depends what your definition is really.

tek-monkey said:

I don't smoke, but I am technically an alcoholic. Depends what your definition is really.

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"An alcoholic is someone you don't like who drinks as much as you do." - Dylan Thomas

shoes said:

You're describing a green house. Millions of people spend a lot of time in their green house with no problem at all

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They might spend alot of time in a greenhouse, but they don't 'live' (if you can call it that) in there. Prolonged exposure to this kind of environment without protective equipment (lets face it, they're pratically slaves so they wont have it), is likely to lead to all kinds of health issues.

Chemicals are more likely to be appropriatley stored, in an area you spend less time. Not the house/warehouse/building you spend your life in.

shoes said:

I think you might be confusing pot with crack cocaine.

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Who exactly do you think grows most of the Cannabis in this country? Whilst there might be people growing 20 plants, they hardly account for the vast quantities produced. Cannabis is grown, cultivated and sold on a Commercial scale, by not very nice people. I know this to be true because of the work I do. They are involved in serious crime at a high level. Firearms & booby traps have been found in numerous factories across the country. Just search google for 'Vietnamese Cannabis Factories' to see what I mean. These gangs produce MILLIONS of tons of the stuff.

shoes said:

Which has of course been proven without doubt is the drug's fault and not merely a deeper underlying problem which has been unrooted due to cannabis use?!

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I'm not sure what your point is? If this drug damages a persons mental stability further, then thats a problem. I work with mental health professionals and they see the effects of Cannabis and the harm it causes. I've seen it in my own brother when he was a teenager. It is a dangerous drug.

shoes said:

Clearly you're not a smoker

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No I'm not, but then I didn't realise that being a drug-user means I was unable to make comment based on evidence and fact. I suppose because I've not used crack or heroin I should refrain from passing judgement on that too?

The fact is that the levels of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) have increased, resulting in a stronger drug with more powerful pyschoactive effects. The main reason for this increase is that 'Skunk' Cannabis is now more prevelant than ever.

shoes said:

Despite the fact that more aclohol related illnesses and even deaths occur each year than every other drug put together?

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Many many more people consume alcohol than illegal drugs. That said, it is used irresponsibly by too many people and I wouldn't know the comparitive percentages of deaths per user of alcohol/drugs. Alcohol is easily abused and there needs to be stronger education and enforcement action taken. Too many bars/clubs/pubs commit the offence of supply alcohol to an intoxicated person, which is why I'm quite prepared to see them pay for the consequences this produces (your drunken hospital admissions and punch ups for example).

Jimbo said:

Try telling the famil of PC Henry that Cannabis is 'harmless' http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1330510/Cannabis-crazed-schizophrenic-free-murder-PC-treatment-scaled-back.html

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DM said:

When he arrived in Luton town centre he was attacked by cannabis user Tennyson Obih, 31, a paranoid schizophrenic who had not taken his medication for six months.

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shoes said:

So it's pot's fault this lunatic hadn't taken his medicine?

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No it's not pots fault he didn't take his medicene. It is of course entriely plausable that it was the very reason he should have been on medicene. Had he never smoked Cannabis he might not have been a paranoid schizophrenic and he might not have gone on to murder that Police officer.

There are of course other instances where this kind of thing has happened http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391305-boy-on-skunk-cannabis-butchered-a-grandmother.do


Legalisation is a cop out and an admission of defeat. Legalisation wouldn't solve a single problem. People with addictions would still commit crime to fund their habbits, as they wouldn't be able to buy asmuch as they required, and any legalised use would be monitored and restricted. Dealers would still sell drugs (just as they do counterfiet everying, and illegal tobacco etc) at a cheaper rate than the government and more people would be encouraged to use, increasing harm. If being illegal stops just 1% more people abusing such substances, then thats good enough for me.

The war on drugs isn't a war at all. Drugs are (mostly) grown and produced) in unstable countries and imported to the west. Any conflict in these countries would prove unpopular. I'm sure everyone in the forum is aware that Afghanistan is the centre of Opium, and so Heroin, supply. Poppy irradication here would have a massive effect on the supply worldwide. It doesn't happen because we're trying to win the 'hearts & minds' of the farmers. It's a toss up of having them support the people blowing our troops up, or let them grow poppies so they support us. With time, and investment, and stability, I'm sure that could start to change. There are similar attempts with Cocoa growers in South America.

Being at work I can't really keep commenting on everything, I have stuffs to do, but I have to comment on this part:

Jimbo said:

Legalisation is a cop out and an admission of defeat. Legalisation wouldn't solve a single problem. People with addictions would still commit crime to fund their habbits, as they wouldn't be able to buy asmuch as they required, and any legalised use would be monitored and restricted. Dealers would still sell drugs (just as they do counterfiet everying, and illegal tobacco etc) at a cheaper rate than the government and more people would be encouraged to use, increasing harm. If being illegal stops just 1% more people abusing such substances, then thats good enough for me.

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Despite my past I have to say:

I've never known a pothead commit a crime to get more weed.
I've never known anyone smoke weed just because it was there, although I admit some people are witless sheep.
The government are a bunch of fookmooks if they can't grow a weed cheaper than those doing so illegaly.
This 1% of people using costs how much to police?

People take drugs because they want to, the current system does not stop them one little bit. All it does is criminalise the users, what good does that do exactly?

So what you're saying is that because a few can't control their usage of the the drug that everyone should be banned from using it? In which case wage good bye to alcohol, tobacco, addictive painkillers, asthma inhalers, antidepressants (actually not a bad idea).....

Oh and while you're at it seeing as there is a minority of the population who don't drive safely, lets ban cars. And seeing as a few teenagers have been 'train surfing' then we should ban trains too. And teenagers.

Oh shit, I think I just saw someone chancing their luck on the ice on the pond next to where I work. Let's ban ponds too. And ice. Just in case.

The problem here is people not being able to take on personal responsibility.

Also to answer your question, over half of the cannabis in this country is imported. It's no coincidence that the best stuff is to be had cheaply in port towns.

With regard to the comment about alcohol and drug consumption, I think it would genuinely shock you to find out how many people use recreational drugs and still manage to lead perfectly normal lives where they can hold down a good job, live a happy life, lay their bottles down at the supermarket and never rape or stab or mug or kill anyone.

Legislation is not a cop out, it would create thousands of jobs, bring higher quality drugs onto the streets, regulated properly and it will reduce the back market massively. I agree with you about it not eradicating the criminal aspect of supply, there will always be a small black market. But like alcohol and tobacco currently is, it counts for a minute proportion of what's being traded.

I think the media coverage of the small number of drug related incidences is, like everything else, skewing the real situation and the viewpoint of the masses. Just like everything else.

Jimbo said:

Legalisation is ... an admission of defeat.

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And the problem with this is? Is it not sensible to admit defeat if defeated?

I have for the last week been pursuing a policy of banging my head against a brick wall to see if it increases my intelligence. It hasn't, but i refuse to admit defeat!

The war on drugs isn't a war at all.

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In South America it is, with guns and everything.

The 'War on Drugs' has been rather superceeded by the 'War on Terror' of late - but a war it most certainly was.

Withnail said:

The 'War on Drugs' has been rather superceeded by the 'War on Terror' of late - but a war it most certainly was.

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Quite handy that most of the War on Terror activity is currently in Afghanistan - possibility of a merger, resulting in greater efficiency and savings?..

Nah, opium production went through the roof when we invaded. The Taliban were more inline with Jimbo's point of view, they just killed you if you grew it.

Oh well, keep calm and carry on..

shoes said:

So what you're saying is that because a few can't control their usage of the the drug that everyone should be banned from using it? In which case wage good bye to alcohol, tobacco, addictive painkillers, asthma inhalers, antidepressants (actually not a bad idea).....

Oh and while you're at it seeing as there is a minority of the population who don't drive safely, lets ban cars. And seeing as a few teenagers have been 'train surfing' then we should ban trains too. And teenagers.

Oh shit, I think I just saw someone chancing their luck on the ice on the pond next to where I work. Let's ban ponds too. And ice. Just in case.

The problem here is people not being able to take on personal responsibility.

Also to answer your question, over half of the cannabis in this country is imported. It's no coincidence that the best stuff is to be had cheaply in port towns.

With regard to the comment about alcohol and drug consumption, I think it would genuinely shock you to find out how many people use recreational drugs and still manage to lead perfectly normal lives where they can hold down a good job, live a happy life, lay their bottles down at the supermarket and never rape or stab or mug or kill anyone.

Legislation is not a cop out, it would create thousands of jobs, bring higher quality drugs onto the streets, regulated properly and it will reduce the back market massively. I agree with you about it not eradicating the criminal aspect of supply, there will always be a small black market. But like alcohol and tobacco currently is, it counts for a minute proportion of what's being traded.

I think the media coverage of the small number of drug related incidences is, like everything else, skewing the real situation and the viewpoint of the masses. Just like everything else.

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There was once a time when most Cannabis was mostly imported, generally via Holland. Post 9/11 ports policing has increased internationally, as has information and intelligence sharing to combat terrorism. As a result, more drugs seizures have been made. It makes economic sense to producers to move production to the destination, no transport costs, lower risk, and lower penalties (internatinal trafficking is a serious offence). I'd like to see your evidence for your statement of 50%. Afterall 50% of facts are bull shit

I work with people who misuse drugs and alochol everyday. I don't need to be shocked by how many people use 'recreational' drugs, I have a good idea. I also get to visit them in their homes when the drugs finally rot their brain, or the alochol finally takes its toll on the body, people who are unable to live full and fulfiling lives following years of drug use. Anybody who uses illegal 'recreational' drugs is of questionable character and integrity; not only are they regularly commiting crime, they are actively associating with criminals. Remember, your dealer will be supplied by another dealer and so on. The higher the ladder you climb, the more harm that person creates.

There is strong scientific evidence that supports the fact that long term Cannabis is addictive (with mental and physical effects resulting from withdrawal), and that users are at increased risk of depression, anxiety and psychosis. As Cannabis has increased in strength, the levels of cannabidiol (CBD) have decreased. CBD actually counteracts the pyschotic effects of THC, and so 'modern' Cannabis is potentially more dangerous than older strains of cannabis.

Cannabis users do commit crime to fund their lifestyle. Not all all afluent enough to pay out of their own pocket. I have seen Cannabis users burgle, steal and rob. I have seen my own brother sell his own possessions and then start to steal from his mother in order to buy cannabis.

I fail to see what kind of massive economy legalisation of drugs would create? Drugs would be sold in pharmacies (already in existince), grown by large pharmaceutical companies (already in extistance), and regulated by a body (yep, already in existance). It might create some jobs, but the thousands you describe are unlikely. It is always going to be cheaper for criminals to produce drugs; they steal the electricity, they don't need advertisment, or regulation, or health and safety, or years of testing. There is a reason so many government run companies are sold off- they are inefficent and expensive to run.

We shouldn't and won't admitt to defeat, as we are yet to be defeated.

Jimbo said:

There was once a time when most Cannabis was mostly imported, generally via Holland. Post 9/11 ports policing has increased internationally, as has information and intelligence sharing to combat terrorism. As a result, more drugs seizures have been made. It makes economic sense to producers to move production to the destination, no transport costs, lower risk, and lower penalties (internatinal trafficking is a serious offence). I'd like to see your evidence for your statement of 50%. Afterall 50% of facts are bull shit

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BBC said:

Total market value £5bn/year
Home grown crop £2.5bn/year

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Source

Jimbo said:

I work with people who misuse drugs and alochol everyday. I don't need to be shocked by how many people use 'recreational' drugs, I have a good idea. I also get to visit them in their homes when the drugs finally rot their brain, or the alochol finally takes its toll on the body, people who are unable to live full and fulfiling lives following years of drug use.

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The weak ones who cannot control themselves? That's not the drugs fault, it's people's fault. What about prohibiting the individual rather than the masses?

Jimbo said:

Anybody who uses illegal 'recreational' drugs is of questionable character and integrity; not only are they regularly commiting crime, they are actively associating with criminals.

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Ha hahaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! I see you crept in there at the last minute with most ridiculous comment of 2010.

Burn your music collection.

Jimbo said:

Remember, your dealer will be supplied by another dealer and so on. The higher the ladder you climb, the more harm that person creates.

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Those big bad dealers, with their brain destroying cannabis eh? I think it's time to drag yourself out of the 1920's.

Jimbo said:

There is strong scientific evidence that supports the fact that long term Cannabis is addictive (with mental and physical effects resulting from withdrawal), and that users are at increased risk of depression, anxiety and psychosis. As Cannabis has increased in strength, the levels of cannabidiol (CBD) have decreased. CBD actually counteracts the pyschotic effects of THC, and so 'modern' Cannabis is potentially more dangerous than older strains of cannabis.

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Anything is addictive if you keep at it long enough. Again, down to the person not the drug. Some people get hooked on glue sniffing, should we ban glue?

Jimbo said:

Cannabis users do commit crime to fund their lifestyle. Not all all afluent enough to pay out of their own pocket. I have seen Cannabis users burgle, steal and rob. I have seen my own brother sell his own possessions and then start to steal from his mother in order to buy cannabis.

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Apart from selling my brother's bike for crack once (in joke) I am not aware of anyone supporting their cannabis habbit by crime. Again, down to the person, not the drug. Can't handle the drug? Then don't use it. Why should the rest of us pay for the ineptitude of others?

Too bad about your brother though, I do hope he's back on the right track now.

Jimbo said:

I fail to see what kind of massive economy legalisation of drugs would create? Drugs would be sold in pharmacies (already in existince), grown by large pharmaceutical companies (already in extistance), and regulated by a body (yep, already in existance). It might create some jobs, but the thousands you describe are unlikely. It is always going to be cheaper for criminals to produce drugs; they steal the electricity, they don't need advertisment, or regulation, or health and safety, or years of testing. There is a reason so many government run companies are sold off- they are inefficent and expensive to run.

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Ok you would need growers. They would need a place to grow, electricity, water, possibly gas for heating, fertilizer, hardware, nutrients, packaging, transportation. Lots of economic activity there, all taxed too.

Then it would need to be sold. Pharmacies would be inundated and would almost certainly require more staff, even larger premises to cope with demand. This in turn would also require more resources, again all taxable.

The sale of paraphernalia would also lead to increased production requiring resources..... you see where this is going.

I agree with you about how inefficient government is at business like ventures but I don't think they would feck this up, there is too much money to be made and the prospect of keeping the 'poor' (i.e. anyone not in the tory cabinet) dumb with the drug.

Crime would also drop as more people would be stoned instead of drunk on a friday/saturday night. This means less police time spent scraping dickheads off the floor and less NHS time spent patching them up.

And whilst we're on the subject of crime, the police expenditure on cannabis is massive and would literally cease with the legalization of the substance.

Jimbo said:

We shouldn't and won't admitt to defeat, as we are yet to be defeated.

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You're not only blinkered but also soon to be outnumbered. Check out this study, particularly section 4.3.