Ah the budget

tek-monkey

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
Malcolm said:
Yes I accept that. What I do struggle with however, (and this may seem radical) but don't we have 1.5m unemployed?

I understand that the majority of those wouldn't be consultant surgeon educated, but why can't we get some of them off their backsides so we don't need to bring in people to do the jobs for them, and therefore ultimately reduce benefits?

You'll pick all manner of holes in that argument, I'm sure, but I'm interested in the principle of that argument.
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Would you employ a UK yoof over a Polish immigrant? I wouldn't, a work ethic is more important than their nationality. I know that is very broad sweeping and rather racist but generally our kids are not up to actual work. Can you see any teenagers you know picking potatoes as a full time job?
 
Malcolm

Malcolm

Well-Known Forumite
tek-monkey said:
Would you employ a UK yoof over a Polish immigrant? I wouldn't, a work ethic is more important than their nationality. I know that is very broad sweeping and rather racist but generally our kids are not up to actual work. Can you see any teenagers you know picking potatoes as a full time job?
Click to expand...
...and that's just it, isn't it. Brits not considered capable of doing basic nursing roles (even though all get at least a comprehensive education) and too lazy to pick fruit or clean - because a degree isn't necessary for that. So we have to admit people from other countries to do it.

Is that not shameful?

That's what frustrates me about having to pay more and more tax. In itself, it's futile.
 
S

Sir BoD

Well-Known Forumite
tek-monkey said:
Would you employ a UK yoof over a Polish immigrant? I wouldn't, a work ethic is more important than their nationality. I know that is very broad sweeping and rather racist but generally our kids are not up to actual work. Can you see any teenagers you know picking potatoes as a full time job?
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Ah, but you're comparing UK young people with those that specifically come over here to work. I'm sure there are many lazy arsed "insert a nationality of your choice" people living in their homeland. There are thousands of young British people who go abroad to work every year. Many go travelling in and around Australia / New Zealand etc. and work for a pittance on fruit picking farms, whereas the local young people there wouldn't touch that job with a barge pole. My daughter is 16 and works long hours in and around her college work, as do many of her friends.
 
Gramaisc

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
This is just it - we are not importing a problem, we are importing a solution to a problem that we have here.

I know people that are genuinely unemployable. It is difficult to imagine that anybody would want them under their feet, even for free. The system merely processes them for its own ends, there is no progress involved.

I know foreigners who work with our barely employable people - one of them decided to stop correcting the English of her indigenous co-"worker" - it was not just misspelled and ungrammatical, it was frequently just wrong and there was a total lack of interest in understanding what would have been right. And, nobody higher up the chain seemed bothered anyway.
 
tek-monkey

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
Sir BoD said:
Ah, but you're comparing UK young people with those that specifically come over here to work. I'm sure there are many lazy arsed "insert a nationality of your choice" people living in their homeland. There are thousands of young British people who go abroad to work every year. Many go travelling in and around Australia / New Zealand etc. and work for a pittance on fruit picking farms, whereas the local young people there wouldn't touch that job with a barge pole. My daughter is 16 and works long hours in and around her college work, as do many of her friends.
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I don't doubt that, but I'm comparing our available workforce. I also know a lot of unemployables, removing their foreign competition won't make them better it'll just make the business worse. The good go out and chase, those that expect everything to fall in their lap aren't worth the risk.
 
S

Sir BoD

Well-Known Forumite
tek-monkey said:
I don't doubt that, but I'm comparing our available workforce. I also know a lot of unemployables, removing their foreign competition won't make them better it'll just make the business worse. The good go out and chase, those that expect everything to fall in their lap aren't worth the risk.
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That's exactly my point. You are seeing it from a skewed and biased point of view. Go and live in another country and you'll see parts of their youth that are just as work shy as their British counterparts. You're making out that it's a young British problem. It's not.
 
tek-monkey

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
Malcolm said:
...and that's just it, isn't it. Brits not considered capable of doing basic nursing roles (even though all get at least a comprehensive education) and too lazy to pick fruit or clean - because a degree isn't necessary for that. So we have to admit people from other countries to do it.

Is that not shameful?

That's what frustrates me about having to pay more and more tax. In itself, it's futile.
Click to expand...

Isn't it weird how our tax doesn't relate to services received?
 
tek-monkey

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
Sir BoD said:
That's exactly my point. You are seeing it from a skewed and biased point of view. Go and live in another country and you'll see parts of their youth that are just as work shy as their British counterparts. You're making out that it's a young British problem. It's not.
Click to expand...

I agree, some people are unemployable and some aren't. I'd choose someone that came here to work over someone pretending to so they don't lose benefit entitlement any day. It's not a British problem, it's a self entitlement problem. If you've never worked a day in your life you're not worth more than nmw, no matter how good a degree in new media* you have. Got a track record of putting in some effort and it's a different matter.

* Other massively over subscribed and therefore seriously devalued degrees are available.
 
Malcolm

Malcolm

Well-Known Forumite
Yes. Interesting. But not all unemployed are unemployable. Lazy, yes, but encouraged to be lazy.
100 yrs ago, before hand-outs, they went to the work house. Society's way of addressing the problem at the time. No imported labour needed. A simpler economy admittedly. But I'm talking about unskilled work now.
What we seem to have in modern times is an unwillingness to address that problem and just pay them, then pay again to import labour. To my (simplistic) mind, the problem could be addressed but there's never an appetite to do it, regardless of which political party is in office. What happened to education x 3 (the liberal method) or the stopping benefits and finding people work (the right wing method)?
Do societies (in general) NEED an element of the population at the bottom who will never work and never vote..? If so, why?
 
tek-monkey

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
As I said earlier, chase and you get but sit and wait for the world to fall into your lap then no chance. People who go abroad to work are chasers, whether they are ours over there or theirs over here.
 
tek-monkey

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
Malcolm said:
Yes. Interesting. But not all unemployed are unemployable. Lazy, yes, but encouraged to be lazy.
100 yrs ago, before hand-outs, they went to the work house. Society's way of addressing the problem at the time. No imported labour needed. A simpler economy admittedly. But I'm talking about unskilled work now.
What we seem to have in modern times is an unwillingness to address that problem and just pay them, then pay again to import labour. To my (simplistic) mind, the problem could be addressed but there's never an appetite to do it, regardless of which political party is in office. What happened to education x 3 (the liberal method) or the stopping benefits and finding people work (the right wing method)?
Do societies (in general) NEED an element of the population at the bottom who will never work and never vote..? If so, why?
Click to expand...

Tbh I'd prefer a sliding scale of benefits, short term better than they are now but dropping to near poverty for a reluctance to work. That's only possible if work is worthwhile though, under current conditions it often isn't. Maybe universal benefits with all work being paid in addition? That way you benefit from every hour worked.
 
Gramaisc

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
Little of this is really planned. Try spending on unemployment and see what the electorate think. There will often be a tendency to use a cheap solution now, rather than invest more in a long-term one, whilst you still have the immediate problem.

Stop paying 'them' and you may just end up giving as much to the security industry to stop them taking in a more direct fashion.

Short-term solutions are what people actually find acceptable.
 
John Marwood

John Marwood

I ♥ cryptic crosswords
First there was

Steam
Electricity
Digital


And now

The 4th Industrial revolution

Guaranteed to make you unemployed

Unemployable even

Artificial Intelligence


Or women

As men prefer to call it
 
Gramaisc

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
Malcolm said:
Do societies (in general) NEED an element of the population at the bottom who will never work and never vote..? If so, why?
Click to expand...
They're quite handy. You have to reward the rich, as they can survive a financial threat, but the poor function better if you keep them on the edge. Allegedly.
 
shoes

shoes

Well-Known Forumite
Malcolm said:
...and increase the strain on public services further by allowing (pick a number) more people to continue to stream into the country.
Click to expand...

lolwut? perhaps you should tour a hospital and see where most of the people who work there come from. and once you've done that, pop over to the ONS website and have a look at how much more immigrants contribute compared to what they take.

Then, once all of that is complete, return to the hospital to have a foreigner extract your head from your posterior so that you can shout at your government.
 
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