Hairbrained government scheme #537 - Grants for heatpumps

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
Am I missing something with this scheme? Heatpumps are useless for anyone not in a really well insulated property, and ideally the heating system should be designed with heatpumps in mind not retrofitting. Ideal for a kingspan box with underfloor heating, terrible for a 1930s semi with concrete floors and a loft full of rockwool. I'm assuming that just like the green homes grant the money will disappear into the private sector with no obvious benefit, anyone have experience of a heat pump in action in anything but a house designed for it?

EDIT: Realised I should provide a link, even the BBC are criticising it!
 

joshua

Well-Known Forumite
And hows that work in terraced houses over 100 years old, another "bloody wonderful" idea which will cost a bomb and cost a fortune on maintaining the damm things
 

joshua

Well-Known Forumite
While there will be a lot of homes that could be improved......in general a lot of the UK housing stock is simply not built in a way that can be hugely improved upon.

What needs to happen is new build standards need to be improved. While better in terms of insulation materials than older housing stock, its still not what it could be, and that's down to the "chuck 'em up quick" mentality, rather than building high quality. No point in having high insulating materials if the thing has been thrown together up by a bunch of cowboys.....which is what usually happens.

The trouble is the same Govt that is saying we need to do more, and fit this and fit that, is the same Govt that keeps demanding we build more homes and quicker.....
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
Retrofitting costs more to do less, agree they should target the new builds.

From what I can see a heatpump at highest efficiency is about 4x that of an electric heater, so 1 unit goes 4 times further. Gas and electric efficiency is similar nowadays, but electricity is 5x more expensive than gas. This means if I could run a heatpump at peak efficiency, impossible in almost all situations, it would still cost more than my combi boiler to run whilst producing water at 45c and needing a hot water tank installing plus replacing all my radiators etc.

Nah mate, you're OK.
 

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
It is a matter of looking at the whole house, and in a competent manner. I moved somebody into a new 'energy efficient' house about fifteen years ago - the windows were deliberately small, to reduce heat losses, but that also reduced natural lighting to the point that you needed the lights on in the daytime. It took me a while and required actual physical evidence, to show the occupants that the lights in the kitchen were 50W halogens and there were ten of them - half a kilowatt to light the kitchen, in the daytime. You would, of course have the benefit of that half-kilowatt upstairs in the winter, but there was no mitigating circumstance for a lot of the time. The appearance of low-energy bulbs in that format has reduced the issue to manageable proportions now, of course, but it is a good example of the single-track thinking that can go on.
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
It is a matter of looking at the whole house, and in a competent manner. I moved somebody into a new 'energy efficient' house about fifteen years ago - the windows were deliberately small, to reduce heat losses, but that also reduced natural lighting to the point that you needed the lights on in the daytime. It took me a while and required actual physical evidence, to show the occupants that the lights in the kitchen were 50W halogens and there were ten of them - half a kilowatt to light the kitchen, in the daytime. You would, of course have the benefit of that half-kilowatt upstairs in the winter, but there was no mitigating circumstance for a lot of the time. The appearance of low-energy bulbs in that format has reduced the issue to manageable proportions now, of course, but it is a good example of the single-track thinking that can go on.
I had similar here, all lights are positioned in corners and downstairs used 1kw! Currently decorating the new office and have a 4' led batten in there, 50w and if anything way too bright for a 6sqm room! Luckily it can switch between white shades, so can go warm in the evenings if still working, but I think I may invest in some lamps.
 

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
I had similar here, all lights are positioned in corners and downstairs used 1kw! Currently decorating the new office and have a 4' led batten in there, 50w and if anything way too bright for a 6sqm room! Luckily it can switch between white shades, so can go warm in the evenings if still working, but I think I may invest in some lamps.
I really just use desk/worktop lights - in fact, I knocked off the breaker for the ceiling lights a long time ago, when going away, and have been back for a total time of about six months since then, without feeling the need to put it back on.
 

rudie111

Well-Known Forumite
We are doing 25 apartments with a similar system. They don’t like the cold ( around -5) and so we have to install electric IR heaters ‘just incase’ the heat pump doesn’t work
 

staffordjas

Well-Known Forumite
I had my baxi and gas fire serviced today. Guy was saying he's extra busy as loads are getting new gas boilers in before the price rockets/ can't have one due to these new regulations due to come in from about 2030.
He says there are only so many of the £5000 government help things, but those in London & South are getting them first. Added said the cost of those units outside are £1000 -1500 +. (or was it £10,000 + ??? ) So people around here he knows who have so far applied have failed to get a grant.

Said when we came to change to all electric , we'd also need bigger radiators , plus a heat pump outside , which would be continual buzzing and using electric. Plus another water tank in the loft .

He's got nothing to lose telling us that as he's retiring before it all comes in.
 
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tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
Said when we came to change to all electric , we'd also need bigger radiators , plus a heat pump outside , which would be continual buzzing and using electric.
This is the bit people seem to be quiet on! For peak efficiency your water will never go above 45c at the very best, most radiators are designed to get much hotter. Heat pumps provide little and often, perfect for under floor heating, but most people will either need much bigger or triple layer radiators. Rooms won't heat up as quickly, in older systems some possibly never will due to heat loss in the circuit and the placement of the thermostat.

Of course they can go above 45c, they have an electric heating element in the tank for just that, but watch your efficiency plummet and you spend more than the old gas boiler was to run. The idea of spending 10k for a worse system is insane, and the gov offering me a 5k bribe to do so won't swing me. I shall be upgrading my gas boiler the year before they stop selling them at this rate!
 

Cue

Well-Known Forumite
We are doing 25 apartments with a similar system. They don’t like the cold ( around -5) and so we have to install electric IR heaters ‘just incase’ the heat pump doesn’t work

We’ve run our AC below -5 without any issues, must be something about that type of pump.


My big question with this whole scheme is basically “does it include air-to-air this time?” - the green home stuff didn’t, it has to be water-based heating (ie tapping into your radiators) and frankly if I’m going to upgrade my heating to a heat pump I’d like it to be useful all year round, especially with these summers we have now.

The prices they’re quoting are lunacy though. It doesn’t take £10k to put in a compressor outside and connect it to your central heating circuit, and you could easily do a 3-bed semi for under that in actual heat pumps (AC), especially in this area. I assume they must quoting numbers for the ground source stuff which needs a massive hole in the ground perhaps.

As others have said though, this just makes companies overcharge, much like with car charger grants.

£5k towards air to air? Sure thing, I’ll shove some instant water heaters under the sinks and call it a day. Anything else? No thank you.
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
The prices they’re quoting are lunacy though. It doesn’t take £10k to put in a compressor outside and connect it to your central heating circuit, and you could easily do a 3-bed semi for under that in actual heat pumps (AC), especially in this area. I assume they must quoting numbers for the ground source stuff which needs a massive hole in the ground perhaps.
£10k was the maximum given to those on benefits under the green home grant, without them having to fund any themselves. As such all heat pumps immediately cost £10k (some higher), and they were air to water because all photos I saw involved a new water tank which they needed to find space for inside the property. One firm were building insulated sheds to put them in, basically just wood and kingspan, if you had no room. The rest just looked like a giant AC unit, some of the photos looked like people had lost half their very small gardens on houses I suspect will see no benefit (even detriment) from the installation.

If they really wanted to make a difference offer solar, most people use much more electricity than gas anyway. It is still often made from fossil fuels so will help reduce our consumption, plus it will reduce the reliance in what we buy in from abroad whilst lessening the load on the grid. For 5k you aren't far off a battery system too.
 

Mudgie

Well-Known Forumite
It is a matter of looking at the whole house, and in a competent manner. I moved somebody into a new 'energy efficient' house about fifteen years ago - the windows were deliberately small, to reduce heat losses, but that also reduced natural lighting to the point that you needed the lights on in the daytime. It took me a while and required actual physical evidence, to show the occupants that the lights in the kitchen were 50W halogens and there were ten of them - half a kilowatt to light the kitchen, in the daytime. You would, of course have the benefit of that half-kilowatt upstairs in the winter, but there was no mitigating circumstance for a lot of the time. The appearance of low-energy bulbs in that format has reduced the issue to manageable proportions now, of course, but it is a good example of the single-track thinking that can go on.
"the windows were deliberately small, to reduce heat losses" isn't a new idea.
I remember Bass Charrington building the Morris Man that way for that purpose and that was in the 1980s.
 

Trumpet

Well-Known Forumite
anyone have experience of a heat pump in action in anything but a house designed for it?
Yes, in a cottage in Wales a couple of years ago heat pump powered underfloor heating, late summer and we had to use the log burners just to maintain a reasonably comfortable temperature. Would defo not recommend as a retrofit option. Sure it would be fine in one of those Scandinavian triple glazed, double insulated type homes, but would imagine anyone currently living in such a home will already have gone down this, or a similar, system at build time.
 
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