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I always thought agnostics were undecided but atheists were sure there wasn't a god? Agnostics don't believe in god either, but are willing to be proven wrong. Maybe I'm an atheist with agnostic tendencies, as I am pretty sure he doesn't exist based on current findings but would believe if the evidence suggested so.Gramaisc said:I thought agnosticism was not believing in god(s) and atheism was believing that god(s) do(es) not exist..Withnail said:Surely atheism is an absence of belief that gods do exist, rather than a belief that they don't.
That's what I'm saying. 'Not believing' is not 'disbelieving'.tek-monkey said:I always thought agnostics were undecided but atheists were sure there wasn't a god?Gramaisc said:I thought agnosticism was not believing in god(s) and atheism was believing that god(s) do(es) not exist..Withnail said:Surely atheism is an absence of belief that gods do exist, rather than a belief that they don't.
I should leave well enough alone, but I can't.dangerousdave said:thought i'd start this thread after reading the above in another thread. can I just say form the off that if you're an athiest of the highest order, and if you believe that science has disprovedn 'god' or a 'higher power' you have no concept of how science works, and also how any good scientist would thinkhenryscat said:Funny you should mention Richard Dawkins, as I am a raving atheist too.
I thank you.Withnail said:Surely atheism is an absence of belief that gods do exist, rather than a belief that they don't.
I thank you again. Burden of Proof is the central tenet of Science.MyCult said:I should leave well enough alone, but I can't.dangerousdave said:thought i'd start this thread after reading the above in another thread. can I just say form the off that if you're an athiest of the highest order, and if you believe that science has disprovedn 'god' or a 'higher power' you have no concept of how science works, and also how any good scientist would thinkhenryscat said:Funny you should mention Richard Dawkins, as I am a raving atheist too.
You are spot on in what you are saying. A Scientifically sound statement but the intent is all wrong. In scientific theory if i make a claim it is up to me to provide my peers with evidence. Evidence that is sufficient enough for them to prove the claims I have made.
If I make the claim I must prove it. Science doesn't work on the basis that we all make outlandish claims and it is up to everyone else to disprove them. If it did work that way we would be in a bit of a mess.
Atheist do not claim there is a god or gods and never have. Theists have been claiming there is a supreme being(s) in one form or another for all of recorded history.
If we are looking at this scientificly then it is the theists that must prove their claim, not the atheists that must disprove it. Perhaps the science of today cannot prove the things theists are asking of it. That doesn't mean they are right. Theists will never be scientifically right until sufficient proof to support their claim is presented.
Trolololololololol.
*edit - just realised this is basically what jenksie said but in more words. Must read whole thread before posting. Must read whole thread before posting.
I'm trying to untangle your syllogisms - I think I prefer your short answer.Withnail said:Ultimately, there is a conflation of ideas here.
Whilst it has become a commonplace that atheism v. theism has become synonymous with theism v. science, i reiterate that this does not necessarily follow.
I could just as easily not believe in god(s), yet still believe the Earth is flat - one does not preclude the other.
Ah, you say, but atheism is a product of advances in scientific understanding. This may be so to some extent, but it still does not necessarily follow that an a-theism is predicated upon a pro-scientific mindset.
Let us consider the following:
Statement 1 - the vast majority of scientists are atheists
Statement 2 - therefore to be an atheist is to be a scientist
compare and contrast
Statement 1 - the vast majority of scientists wear brown shoes
Statement 2 - therefore to wear brown shoes is to be a scientist
You could argue that science is akin to religion if you wish - you would find yourself down a dark alleyway and let's face it, who wants to go down one of them? - but it probably isn't worth the trying.
What you can't do is argue that atheism is akin to a religion. Because it isn't.
http://www.staffordforum.com/viewtopic.php?pid=112244#p112244Jenksie said:Must go now and watch Jonathon Meades - bet he believes in God!
Withnail said:http://www.staffordforum.com/viewtopic.php?pid=112244#p112244Jenksie said:Must go now and watch Jonathon Meades - bet he believes in God!
Gramaisc said:I am considering launching a religion based on the pronouncements of Johnathan Meades....
Jenksie said:Must go now and watch Jonathon Meades - bet he believes in God!
How much?Meades said:...Faith is, of course, a euphemism for gullibility, it positions itself beyond proof.
Faith causes the existence of Gods and miracles.
(And the predictive congregations of magpies)
I've stood on a cliff and observed the curvature of the earth as the sea disappears over the horizon....Hetairoi said:Science is often as bad as religion you believe it (or not) just because someone told you so!
How do you know the earth is really round, have you personally been into space and seen it or have you just believed somthing you have been told?
Eratosthenes gave it some thought a while ago.shoes said:I've stood on a cliff and observed the curvature of the earth as the sea disappears over the horizon....Hetairoi said:Science is often as bad as religion you believe it (or not) just because someone told you so!
How do you know the earth is really round, have you personally been into space and seen it or have you just believed somthing you have been told?
That was only used as an example, maybe a little too obvious an example!Hetairoi said:Science is often as bad as religion you believe it (or not) just because someone told you so!
How do you know the earth is really round, have you personally been into space and seen it or have you just believed somthing you have been told?
Joke!Withnail said:Jenksie said:Must go now and watch Jonathon Meades - bet he believes in God!How much?Meades said:...Faith is, of course, a euphemism for gullibility, it positions itself beyond proof.
Faith causes the existence of Gods and miracles.
(And the predictive congregations of magpies)