Thanks, Theo.

Gramaisc

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
Mudgie said:
That reminds we of going with two colleagues, government but not NHS, to ICL in Bracknell 29 years ago about a new IT system and the most senior of us having no idea about negotiating and nearly accepting less than was being paid for.
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I can remember the MD of a division of what was then the largest private employer in the UK, bounding into the computer room, thumping the top of a big, grey box by the door and demanding to know "How many megabytes in there, then?"

The answer he got was "Dunno. Bloody loads, though, it's a filing cabinet. That's the computer over there - please don't punch it."
 
Cue

Cue

Well-Known Forumite
I don’t disagree that the NHS is horrendously inefficient, a lot of it makes zero sense because each trust is partially left to their own devices. There was something about the Health Minister centralising it all under that office a while back but of course we’ve changed Health Minister 3 or 4 times since.

Running it like the best bits of a private business would held a lot - labour efficiency (trim the middle management fat), centralisation where appropriate, standardisation, buying power, cost efficiency, etc.

Just keep the for-profit element out, it should always be “spend the budget or lose the budget, but spend it sensibly”
 
Mudgie

Mudgie

Well-Known Forumite
Cue said:
I don’t disagree that the NHS is horrendously inefficient, a lot of it makes zero sense because each trust is partially left to their own devices. There was something about the Health Minister centralising it all under that office a while back but of course we’ve changed Health Minister 3 or 4 times since.

Running it like the best bits of a private business would held a lot - labour efficiency (trim the middle management fat), centralisation where appropriate, standardisation, buying power, cost efficiency, etc.

Just keep the for-profit element out, it should always be “spend the budget or lose the budget, but spend it sensibly”
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"Just keep the for-profit element out" - it's too late for that, years after PFIs gave the NHS short term gain.
“spend the budget or lose the budget" means money wasted so as not to loose the budget in subsequent years. Underspending one year, for whatever reason, shouldn't result in being penalised the next and subsequent years.
 
kyoto49

kyoto49

Well-Known Forumite
gilesjuk said:
Can you provide examples to disprove my points? merely saying is it rubbish is not a debate. I could merely say back that your comment is utter crap as well and how would that be a debate?

I'll qualify my experience, 12 years working for a supplier of software to the NHS. I know full well how ridiculously complicated the data, reporting etc is. There's a huge industry of suppliers who sell software costing a lot of money to the NHS because every single hospital insists on buying their own PAS system, going to various vendors for software for their mandatory data submissions to the NHS Digital in Leeds. Part of the NPFIT project was to standardise local IT systems and there was that much pushback they canned the idea.

And that's with mentioning things like the internal market, tariffs etc..

I don't blame the NHS entirely, government introduce all sorts of programmes and changes. That's where it being privately run would help to a degree. It works in Germany.
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20 years and counting working in the NHS. Firstly there is a lot more to the NHS than hospitals. Each Trust is unique. Your experience of NHS IT is woefully outdated. The pushback on npfit was cos it was ill thought out overly expensive rubbish. I suppose you are one of those who think the NHS still runs on XP and fax machines? In reality we don't have any fax machines in my Trust and run Windows 10..soon to be 11.

The trust I work for does not spend a penny on non jobs, every person who works there does a real actual job that benefits patients, directly or indirectly. It also doesn't employ any of these mythical women with social science degrees on 70k and it doesn't have a gender wage gap. All salaries adhere to the published agenda for change national NHS pay scale. Gender doesn't come in to it.

Not to let the facts get in the way of your right wing misinformed agenda or anything.
 
kyoto49

kyoto49

Well-Known Forumite
Cue said:
I don’t disagree that the NHS is horrendously inefficient, a lot of it makes zero sense because each trust is partially left to their own devices. There was something about the Health Minister centralising it all under that office a while back but of course we’ve changed Health Minister 3 or 4 times since.

Running it like the best bits of a private business would held a lot - labour efficiency (trim the middle management fat), centralisation where appropriate, standardisation, buying power, cost efficiency, etc.

Just keep the for-profit element out, it should always be “spend the budget or lose the budget, but spend it sensibly”
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This inefficiency myth isn't universal. There are very many well run Trusts specifically because they are left to their own devices to source the specific kit they need at the best price rather than centralised buying of kit they don't need or that doesn't meet their needs.

There appears to be a lot of lazy inaccurate stereotypes of the NHS in this thread and the huge amounts of genuine best practice that is a normal part of the NHS way is being massively overlooked.

I'm not saying it's perfect and there are areas for improvement but it does many things very well.

The Tories are the issue, not the NHS
 
Theresa Green

Theresa Green

Well-Known Forumite
THE PLAN

Run down the NHS

Let Social Care fail

Sell off the most profitable parts of the healthcare system to US Venture Capitalists

Charge an insurance fee to cover the larger half of the NHS that will not make profits

PAY

Ignore all strikes in all sectors

Rush through new strike legislation

Rush through new protest legislation

Wait for inflation to fall to 5%

Offer 2%

GIVE

Supporting media outlets greater tax breaks

REALITY

Someone famous dies in the back of an ambulance in hospital grounds live on social media

Sunak makes a series of completely wrong decisions and statements

Quits

Moves to the US to spend more time counting his money

RESULT

Fast Food becomes cheaper

TV watching becomes cheaper

Gambling becomes more accessible

The population becomes more obese and more easily distrac
 
D

DoggedWalker

Well-Known Forumite
For what it’s worth, there are many fewer managers in the NHS than in other, better performing, health care settings around the world.

The lack of professional managers is actually part of the problem. It’s all well and good recruiting extra nurses but if no one is managing their deployment, the time tabling, the processes and performance etc then it becomes a tangled mess of inefficiency.

It is a horribly inefficient system though, employing something like 1 in 70 people in the UK, requiring an ever growing enormous pot of money (12% of GDP) and yet it performs worse and worse each year. The ‘save our NHS’ mantra of Covid has seemingly had the total opposite result.

I do subscribe, a little, to their being some terrible waste on none-jobs in the NHS, but as a share of the whole spend, it’s tiny. It’s already an incredibly diverse workforce, I’m not sure trusts need to spend millions on Diversity and Inclusion managers and practitioners.

I suspect there’ll be a change in rules for Trusts around use of agency staff. It’s become a very obvious rip off for staff to suddenly double their salary for the exact same role by being poached away from the job in the first place.

The biggest issue for central government to fix is social care. Fix that, even half fix it, and the NHS suddenly has masses of capacity. If you’ve ever spent any time in a hospital, away from A&E the wards are largely filled with elderly people who could probably be discharged… if there was just someone to support them at home.
 
B

bunique

Well-Known Forumite
DoggedWalker said:
The biggest issue for central government to fix is social care. Fix that, even half fix it, and the NHS suddenly has masses of capacity. If you’ve ever spent any time in a hospital, away from A&E the wards are largely filled with elderly people who could probably be discharged… if there was just someone to support them at home.
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Absolutely this, times a million! But that’s another part of the “public” sector that has collapsed after being taken over by off-shore companies :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Theresa Green

Theresa Green

Well-Known Forumite
tek-monkey said:
It's funny (well, not really) that our government are desperate to get the economically inactive back to the grindstone, yet so many are caring for family because there is no help.

And don't get me started on finding childcare if on a zero hour contract!
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THIS
 
gilbert grape

gilbert grape

Well-Known Forumite
But Theo said she was here to help us.
But 50,000 marched to save the hospital and then voted the Tories in.
But we have 56 ambulances across Staffordshire and 32 were in a queue at Stoke.
But we have MPs that were voted in to save the NHS pointing fingers at staff for striking rather than wanting to open wards and clinics.
But they told us they were going to build 40 new hospitals.
But Corbyn stood on live televised hustings and exposed redacted documents as running the NHS down to privatise it and he was flatly called a liar and the Tories won an election on it!

All fact! Yet some people want to blame those taking action to force change and save lives. Now THAT is what I call CRIMINAL!
 
Theresa Green

Theresa Green

Well-Known Forumite
gilbert grape said:
But Theo said she was here to help us.
But 50,000 marched to save the hospital and then voted the Tories in.
But we have 56 ambulances across Staffordshire and 32 were in a queue at Stoke.
But we have MPs that were voted in to save the NHS pointing fingers at staff for striking rather than wanting to open wards and clinics.
But they told us they were going to build 40 new hospitals.
But Corbyn stood on live televised hustings and exposed redacted documents as running the NHS down to privatise it and he was flatly called a liar and the Tories won an election on it!

All fact! Yet some people want to blame those taking action to force change and save lives. Now THAT is what I call CRIMINAL!
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Most People are stupid

Most People are scared of not fitting in

Some People say that children should be seen and not heard

Chain-store chainsmoke, I consume you all
Chain-gang chainmail, I don't think at all
 
tek-monkey

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
gilbert grape said:
But Theo said she was here to help us.
But 50,000 marched to save the hospital and then voted the Tories in.
But we have 56 ambulances across Staffordshire and 32 were in a queue at Stoke.
But we have MPs that were voted in to save the NHS pointing fingers at staff for striking rather than wanting to open wards and clinics.
But they told us they were going to build 40 new hospitals.
But Corbyn stood on live televised hustings and exposed redacted documents as running the NHS down to privatise it and he was flatly called a liar and the Tories won an election on it!

All fact! Yet some people want to blame those taking action to force change and save lives. Now THAT is what I call CRIMINAL!
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Ah, but they got brexit done! Loads of people may be dead, the country may be in tatters, but we have changed the colour of one of our documents and that is apparently more important.

Basically people are thick.
 
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