Illiterate school-leavers and workless households are destabilising UK economy

[Gadget]

If you can't read 'n' write you can't accept a place in secondary education.

That really is an 'end of' kind of statement - personally i would agree to holding people back from secondary schools until a certain degree of literacy could be demonstrated. Much of what you 'do' at secondary level is "Turn to p.250 and..." etc - it seems a little, if not a lot, pointless to say that to someone who turns to p.250 and sees 'wugahumpftamuff'.

From personal experience i realised early on the myth upon which our education 'system' is based when two friends of mine left school at 16 - how did they get on in the world-of-work?

Case Study 1: Good academically, finished school with a good set of 'O' levels, went in to a (what was still called then) 'clerical' role earning ~ £100 a week - sounds shit but a pint was ~ 50p - reasonable but not wowing.

Case Study 2: Crap academically, finished school with nothing to speak of, admittedly on shakier ground here but he might have scraped a couple of 'CSE's together, went into a building job as a brick-layer, earned-while-he-learned, and was making ~£300 a week in the same time-span.

I have long thought that part of the problem is that our educators fill us with their own dreams as to what is desirable. Given that they inevitably come from an academic background, they tend to sell to us the idea that academia is the road to redemption when it can be demonstrably shown that it is not. This is not entirely their fault.

I was on the dole for a while back in the 'Something's' and they started to get all arsey and put people on 'courses' if they had been signing on for a certain amount of time. One of the things i had to do was complete a *checks * 'psychometric test',which confirmed that - in short - i am more 'wordy' than i am 'handy'. This i already knew, of course, but i suppose it was in some way nice to be 'confirmed'.

Much as i don't like to be the kind of person who prefixes their statements with statements such as 'it beggars belief that...', but it really does beggar belief that we can't do this kind of thing a bit earlier and tailor people's educational experience accordingly.

Sort of thing.

Exactly! Hold them back or reduce their classes so they can concentrate on their literacy, it's for everyones good in the end.
After taking my GCSE's i realised that there were no more qualifications in school available for my chosen profession, i left and went to college to get my qualifications, got them, stayed for a while at the job i had taken whilst training then moved on to better things. Finding out that whilst i'd ''done the right thing'' by going and getting said qualifications, others had just blagged their way into a job and done day release etc and come out with a job more money and the same quals as me. And then you find the industry preferrs that grrr.
I wish that society would realise that after the basics, academics are all well and good but a lot of the time it's experience and training that is needed. It's a viscious circle, no experience, no job. No job, no experience.
G x

 

[Gramaisc]

Much as i don't like to be the kind of person who prefixes their statements with statements such as 'it beggars belief that...', but it really does beggar belief that we can't do this kind of thing a bit earlier and tailor people's educational experience accordingly.

We can do - we just don't. If you think back, I'm sure you'll find that every child in any class that you were in had a full 'psychometric' assessment of all the others, and him/herself, too. I do believe that the teachers could also have a good go at it, but the 'herding sheep' instinct can be over-powering...

 

[zebidee]

I think with the right direction from a caring adult we can tailor the educational experience, but it (generally) takes place outside of school. Educational establishments have a goal, and it isn't to produce reams of excellently intelligent free thinking individuals (whatever they may tell you). Unfortunately the method has backfired, and as well as producing nice little drones it creates just as much resistance as compliance.

That's not to say school can't be an inspiring experience - evidence of just one person who got great things out of school belies that assumption, but it goes to show that the factory farming schooling method can't suit every child.

/soapbox.

 

[proactive]

Also, (this is not my view but a tongue in cheek reference to something else, aka a joke) should anyone be having children when the kids homes are full of them......:p

Thanks, that caused a coffee/monitor interface moment

 

[Gramaisc]

Sometimes one does wonder about the real motivations of some of those payed to be in charge...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18454800

 

[Gadget]

School meals really are shite! We have been moaned at for months about my daughters weight and why were they not putting it on etc. Since moving and the farce that has been trying to get them into a school, they have been at home, in my sole care they have put on weight and look much healthier now that they haven't been half starved by the school.
Those in charge tend to have their own jobs in mind what ever they do.
G x

 

[Wolfenrook]

What came first:-

The chicken or the egg?
The lazy assed parent or the illiterate child?

Who is to blame for our nations problems? We are, all of us.

Do I believe that the welfare state is to blame? No, I don't. I don't believe this because from personal experience I have found that having kids seriously isn't an easy life, not when you are a parent who actually gives a hoot. There's one of my points right there. I was raised by a truck driver and a housewife. I went on to a university education which led to an underpaid job as an NHS slave (aka. mental health nurse). Did my parents help me? Did they hell, a few half decent teachers did. Oh and yeah, I had one of those tests as well, it came up that I was 'fickle'. Oh such a useful test. I took another years later, it told the job centre that I was better qualified and suited to do their jobs than they were. If the welfare state wasn't there, the morons still would be, they'd just commit more crime.

Just to note, we aren't on job seekers, the reason been we don't work because we have disabled children to look after. I fell out of work originally though because been constantly attacked by 'clients' with no pastoral support beyond "get used to it, it's your job" led to me suffering from depressive illness.

As to the government providing decent nurseries etc etc, why the hell shouldn't parents raise their own kids? Again, we come down to choice. Oh and no, I seriously doubt that our schools will ever be improved in the ways I would like to see, it's an ideal, not a realistic expectation.

What do I believe is destabilising the UK economy? Greed and a self defeating circle of attempts to stabilise the economy without actually recognising the cause. Can I prove this? No, it's just my belief.

Folks seem to think there was a time here in the UK when things were different, uhm nope, never happened. There have always been illiterate people, in fact I am willing to bet there are less now, the problem been good luck finding any genuine facts to prove this one way or another. The main thing that has changed is how many of these illiterate people can actually find work, in a climate where even highly educated people struggle. The factories are gone etc. Why? Because it's cheaper to import things from countries where people get paid a heck of a lot less, which means you can make more profit.

Why do I get touchy around the topic? Because I am sick and tired of people who know nothing about me or my family standing in judgement of us. Especially when their grounds for doing so is a demonstrably questionable 'article' in a supposed 'news paper'. They don't seem to like it much when I stand in judgement over them and their parents when I return the favour.

If you dislike been judged upon a baseless asumption, then don't judge others on baseless assumptions.

Oh and Henry, I am really annoyed with you. Far too many posts you made there that I found myself agreeing with. I feel dirty now.

Ade

 

[andy w]

Wolfenrook, I commend your very personal post concerning your upbringing and the effect of the welfare state on your life.You make many salient points esp. about education, you can have supporting parents and good schools but for some reason the pupil hasn't got it in him/her to succeed it's a problem and visa versa about poor schooling or lack of parental support.
About 10 years ago I was very concerned that Tony Blair stated he wanted to see 50% go to university because, one,you were going to channel youngsters into a path that didn't suit them, and secondly and more importantly what about the other 50% of school leavers who IMO come from Labours core support. I felt Labour was abandoning it's traditional supporters( allowing unrestricted migration from eastern europe made it much harder to get the jobs on the bottom rungs of the employment ladder) and pandered to the middle classes. The current government has promoted and expanded apprenticships which I think is a positive step as young people will succeed with a trade but I do wonder about the quality of some of training schemes.
Ade I do have to take issue when you say the factorys are gone as whilst a number have, many others have weathered the storm and have been expanding over the past 3 years. We as a country are quick to be negative about our abilities but I believe are a very creative and opotomistic country and we still punch above our weight in the world and being outside the euro allows us the freedom to plough our own course.
As for welfare it is a very complex issue and sucsessive governments have tried to get it right. For many people ,due to their circumstances,need considerable long term support, but for others- quoting Tony Blair's soundbite- need a hand up rather than a hand out.

 

[Wolfenrook]

The "factories gone" is a figure of speech bud, compare how much we produce here in the UK to say even the 1960s and 70s, and you will see there has been a HUGE drop off, and a huge increase in imports from places like China, India etc where they don't have to pay decent wages. Heck, our GNP even switched to been based on production (as it is in most countries) to the service industry, and industry that just isn't really open to those not suite to academia and professional training.

All that said, I have always been able to find a job when I truly tried. BUT I've had training as a part of my academic background in things like interview techniques etc, and yes some serious manipulation. In fact the last time I tried to return to work, I walked straight into a part time job related to one of my hobbies. When I was younger however I experienced the other side of things, where the only work I could get was as a care assistan in a nursing home back in the days before minimum wage... Probably the most menial and demeaning work you could find.

I grew up been constantly told by my parents about how when they were young you could leave school (at 14 apparently) and walk straight into a job in a factory. Now however the factory jobs there are require skills and training, eg. CNC lathe operation etc. That's all I meant by the factories are gone, they're gone as an easy to access source of employment for those people who don't suit academic types of education. I certainly did not mean it as a slur to the factories still running. Heck these days even warehouse staff have to have been on courses......

Then there is the dumb assed culture of demanding that applicants have experience. Ok, sometimes this is important, but more often they are missing out on the opportunity to employ a person who can be trained and moulded to their particular needs. Instead they often end up with an employee with an over inflated sense of self importance.

Let's face is though, the biggest problem is there aren't enough jobs for everybody. I always laugh my backside off when I read how such and such business is creating jobs, when you look at the current state of affairs and realise that they're just moving the jobs from one place to another most of the time.

Ok, I've gone a bit off topic there, but it can still be linked in, in that perhaps we need more schools giving vocational training and organising work experience, and testing to try to discover whether kids are more suited to the academic routes or the vocational routes. Along with a broader range of topics, heck many kids their abilities and aptitudes just don't fit into the traditional topics taught in the majority of schools, or they do but because they don't perform well enough in 'core' topics they don't get the opportunity to select the other topics. Again I can give an example. Because of how my school 'grouped' the pupils, I ended up grouped with the people who were only given a choice of studying French, History or Geograpy. I absolutely hated History and Geography (mainly thanks to the absolutely appauling teachers for these subjects) so went for French. Here's the thing, I have odd hearing, I can't actually HEAR what a French person is saying to me, it just sounds like mumbling. The same school offered other kids the chance to learn German, I can hear German no problem, and even have managed to teach myself a tiny bit, but didn't get to do it because I wasn't getting As and Bs in maths...... Seriously, what the heck had my ability in maths got to do with what language I could learn? I sincerely doubt that schools have changed THAT much since then, heck my oldest chose her options recently, and it was pretty similar. She can't stand French and wanted to learn German (we even bought her a CD + book set for her), but guess what.....

Ade

 

[andy w]

Yes it's tough for the kids deciding what route to take whether it best to stay on at six form and going down the academic route or more vocational but what we have to do is impress on the youngsters to take advantage what is offer for them and not drop out and get used to a life on benifit.
Times are defineatly tough and getting knock backs must sap confidence and self worth but people need to dig deep and not give up as it's surprising how avenues open up unexpectedly. Thankfully life is not planned out and events good and bad happen and influence peoples lifes( I wonder how much of our lifes are under our own infuence and how much is fate/karma)

 

[henryscat]

What do I believe is destabilising the UK economy? Greed and a self defeating circle of attempts to stabilise the economy without actually recognising the cause. Can I prove this? No, it's just my belief.

Greed is absolutely up there as the cause of economic problems and it has done more than jigger our economy, it is responsible for the same in other economies too. Nothing will be solved whilst a very very small minority are allowed to control the majority of wealth.

 

[Alan B'Stard]

Nothing will be solved whilst a very very small minority are allowed to control the majority of wealth.

Yup. Pretty much spot on.

 

[tek-monkey]

Surely wealth is a tad immaterial? Money is only worth something if other people want it, just like any commodity but on its own it holds no value. All we really need is food and shelter, so essentially we just need land. Oh, the rich buggers have that

 

[Wolfenrook]

Money and land are pretty much one and the same Tek a lot of the time, effectively.

I for one however don't really fancy going back to serfdom. lol I also have seen with my own eyes that all communism does is to put another very small minority in charge of the wealth. Whether that wealth is currency, land or labour.

As to anarchy, only a muppet would think that could work. All anarchy would achieve would be to divide 'government' into smaller groups, as in the biggest bullies would get other bullies to help them to take power and to subdue 'the weak'.

My idealistic fantasies consist solely of a whish that government would put a cap on prices on essentials. As noted, a fantasy.

Things aren't going to get better, we don't live in an episode of Star Trek. The best we can realistically hope for is a lesser degree of 'bad'. If you think that things can be fixed, by for example voting for a different party, you're living in a dream world. It has never been truer that whoever you vote for, the government gets in.

Ade

 

[tek-monkey]

If you think that things can be fixed, by for example voting for a different party, you're living in a dream world. It has never been truer that whoever you vote for, the government gets in.

Ade

People are too dumb to want it fixed, they just voted against the only chance a small party had of ever gaining power. They like the current system, and I can only assume it is because being miserable and having something to moan about are entrenched in the populations psyche(sp?). Why else would Eastenders be popular, who the hell thinks watching miserable cockneys for a few hours a week is enjoyment?

 

[Alan B'Stard]

Surely wealth is a tad immaterial? Money is only worth something if other people want it, just like any commodity but on its own it holds no value. All we really need is food and shelter, so essentially we just need land. Oh, the rich buggers have that

Wealth is very material when you can afford to pay 12k a year in school fees and to have teaching resources that the inner city Scuffy McGrubby Comprehensives could only dream of.

It does not even matter if the offspring being taught is as thick as two planks as the money will effectively buy into the old boy network and secure a future that way.

 

[Gadget]

Just to help kids with their reading and writing, i just read this, (from the google news thingy) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...to-block-Michael-Goves-plan-to-axe-GCSEs.html
How many years have they been insisting that it's easier and easier? I was hearing it while i was at school so surely it's that easy by now that by the easy qualifications they have, all kids should be genius'. Nonsense, is what i say.
Something for another topic here, but looks like yet another thing the gov are trying to slide past their partners.
G

 

[John Marwood]

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[Tilly]

 

[basil]

Utter bollocks.....