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Leave or Remain?
- Thread starter andy w
- Start date
Tilly
Well-Known Forumite
Every week the government has a final summit, where they absolutely have to definitely lay out their detailed proposals on Brexit.
Then they announce “After a thorough session lasting 17 hours, we agreed we will not be part of any customs union that we are not a part of, and that if Brexit was a chocolate, it would be a Toffee Crisp, and that an ostrich would win in a fight with a unicorn.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...boris-david-davis-eu27-disaster-a8433306.html
Then they announce “After a thorough session lasting 17 hours, we agreed we will not be part of any customs union that we are not a part of, and that if Brexit was a chocolate, it would be a Toffee Crisp, and that an ostrich would win in a fight with a unicorn.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...boris-david-davis-eu27-disaster-a8433306.html
tek-monkey
wanna see my snake?
I'm meeting lots of interesting people this week from all over Europe, and after a few drinks talk invariably turns to brexit. They don't understand why 'we' voted for it and I can't explain. Mind you one now lives in the USA and can't explain Trump either. We've agreed that future generations will look on this as the stupid ages, and chances are we'll be back in with worse terms before 2050.
by the sounds of things were leaving the EU but not really leaving but remain in some bits but on worse terms than now which is not what the people voted for. the best way I can explain the decision to leave is. although the majority of people acknowledged there were benefits of remaining within the EU. the cost of open borders was too great to except so voted to leave. if the EU allowed full control of the UK to control its borders the result would have been very different. the UK was only willing to except 3 of the none negotiable 4 freedoms. if Theresa may was able to negotiate an opt-out of the freedom of movement whilst retaining the other 3 freedoms and a second referendum was held remain would win by a wide margin.
tek-monkey
wanna see my snake?
Why would the EU want to allow us to trade for free but not allow their people to come here? What's in it for them? They make up about half our exports, we import a similar amount by value but spread across many countries. They are gonna feel this a lot less than we do, so why do us a special deal?
As for borders, won't Ireland still be open?
As for borders, won't Ireland still be open?
Who said it would be any different for UK citizens going to Europe. Is there any other trade deal that has unlimited free movement of people as a condition.
tek-monkey
wanna see my snake?
The EU isn't just a trade deal though?
I can see brexit actually helping some EU companies, tariffs could mean the difference between losing work to the UK or being more competitive.
I can see brexit actually helping some EU companies, tariffs could mean the difference between losing work to the UK or being more competitive.
The Hawk
Well-Known Forumite
The whole Brexit farce was created as a self-preservation exercise by the Conservatives. To date this project has not been entirely successful.
First, the referendum was an election promise made by David Cameron, to help him secure enough votes to win the 2015 general election.
Second, David Cameron was so confident that there would be a remain vote, that the referendum question was not properly thought out and the remain campaign was half-hearted.
Third, after David Cameron stepped down (after 'losing' the referendum vote), Theresa May decided that the Conservative majority was too small to drive through her vision (if she ever really had one) of Brexit, plus other key policies so, given the Conservative's showing in the polls, plus Labour's apparent disarray, she 'called' another general election, to stamp her authority on the government.
Fourth, after the 2017 general election cock up, Theresa May was left with no majority, in hock to the DUP (who won't support a hard border with Ireland, or separate arrangements for Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK).
Fifth, Ireland won't accept a hard border with Northern Ireland and, therefore, will veto any deal that proposes such an arrangement.
Which brings us to today.
There is no majority, in Parliament for a hard Brexit, which is what many (but by no means all) of the leavers thought they were voting for.
Conversely, there are enough hard Brexit supporters, amongst Conservative MPs, to make Theresa May's life hell.
So, as Brian Cox, so succinctly put it, the deal that is now being put together is not what anyone voted for, but one to try and keep the Conservatives and, at this moment in time, Theresa May, in power.
The position we are now in, and the damage that is now being inflicted on our economy is one entirely self-inflicted by the Conservative party. And as much as I lack trust in the Labour Party's ability to manage the economy, its difficult to see how even they could have made such a mess of things.
Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
First, the referendum was an election promise made by David Cameron, to help him secure enough votes to win the 2015 general election.
Second, David Cameron was so confident that there would be a remain vote, that the referendum question was not properly thought out and the remain campaign was half-hearted.
Third, after David Cameron stepped down (after 'losing' the referendum vote), Theresa May decided that the Conservative majority was too small to drive through her vision (if she ever really had one) of Brexit, plus other key policies so, given the Conservative's showing in the polls, plus Labour's apparent disarray, she 'called' another general election, to stamp her authority on the government.
Fourth, after the 2017 general election cock up, Theresa May was left with no majority, in hock to the DUP (who won't support a hard border with Ireland, or separate arrangements for Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK).
Fifth, Ireland won't accept a hard border with Northern Ireland and, therefore, will veto any deal that proposes such an arrangement.
Which brings us to today.
There is no majority, in Parliament for a hard Brexit, which is what many (but by no means all) of the leavers thought they were voting for.
Conversely, there are enough hard Brexit supporters, amongst Conservative MPs, to make Theresa May's life hell.
So, as Brian Cox, so succinctly put it, the deal that is now being put together is not what anyone voted for, but one to try and keep the Conservatives and, at this moment in time, Theresa May, in power.
The position we are now in, and the damage that is now being inflicted on our economy is one entirely self-inflicted by the Conservative party. And as much as I lack trust in the Labour Party's ability to manage the economy, its difficult to see how even they could have made such a mess of things.
Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
Gramaisc
Forum O. G.
Free movement of EU citizens between member states seems to be largely what concerns quite a few leavers*. That came in with the Single European Act, during the Thatcher time, I believe. There was an allowance for restrictions due to criminal activities, but not anything else.
*Including two I know who live in Spain and voted leave,
*Including two I know who live in Spain and voted leave,
proactive
Enjoying a drop of red.
One rarely sees 'Theresa May' and 'vision' used in the same sentence.
She'll be being accused of being dynamic and cheery next.
tek-monkey
wanna see my snake?
Shush with your facts, we've had enough of experts!
Gramaisc
Forum O. G.
If I was on a sinking ship and David Davis offered to jump off it, I would be inclined to view that as a positive step.Looks like the beginning of the end for may as Davis and another Brexit minister resign over Mays bullshit deals plan
Looking forward to watching them rip themselves apart over the next few weeks.
Happy days
It has taken over two years to get to this stage...
Tilly
Well-Known Forumite
Trump to fly in and sort it all out
Riots everywhere except for London where Britain's entire police force are now camping out
World Cup Willie cure expected by the weekend
Electric cars to be powered by cigarette lighters
Bovis homes capture the Doxey Marshes dust bowl for their continued collapsible house programme
The entire number of Stafford shops can now be stored in the Guildhall overnight
Riots everywhere except for London where Britain's entire police force are now camping out
World Cup Willie cure expected by the weekend
Electric cars to be powered by cigarette lighters
Bovis homes capture the Doxey Marshes dust bowl for their continued collapsible house programme
The entire number of Stafford shops can now be stored in the Guildhall overnight