The Big Benefits & Employment Thread

[tek-monkey]

Benefits system costs more than actual income tax revenue

We pay more for the 3m people who don't work, than we raise from the god knows how many million that work. Sorry state of affairs, but if they raise taxes people will just go on the dole!




Admin edit: Moved posts to new thread.

 

[shoes]

Doesn't also cover DLA / state pension too or is it purely JSA/income support? Willl read the article in more depth later. Too busy working

 

[djstaffs]

Recently when businesses are being squeezed workers are either laid off, go on short time or take a pay cut so i propose sacking some from the benefit system, thos that are left put some on short time so they can only claim benefits for part of the week instead of 7 days and the remainder should take a cut in pay, errm sorry, benefits.

 

[tek-monkey]

Benefits need to be cut, they cost us way too much. However, people need to live, and the job market is in a bad state. I'd propose a multi tier benefits system, where the longer you claim the less you get. It is after all just supposed to be a safety net.

I'd also like to know how many immigrants have tax paying jobs in the UK, and how many are claiming some form of benefits.

EDIT: Thats not for racist reasons, I just remember that we were told we needed all these immigrants to take up jobs that weren't being filled. We should have just forced those on JSA to work, or forced them into training for a trade that is needed. I say forced, I mean incentivise. By cutting their benefits.

 

[djstaffs]

Recently when businesses are being squeezed workers are either laid off, go on short time or take a pay cut so i propose sacking some from the benefit system, thos that are left put some on short time so they can only claim benefits for part of the week instead of 7 days and the remainder should take a cut in pay, errm sorry, benefits.

BTW, before this sparks yet another row, my comments were said very lightheartedly, said very tongue in cheek, were not aimed at anyone and is not meant to offend anyone (apologies if it did).

Tek is quite right, we do need to support people when they need help but we cant continue in a system that pays out more than it gets in. What is the solution? Well surely there is little choice but either raise taxes or cut benefits? I dont profess to have the answers, just some suggestions.

 

[djstaffs]

We should have just forced those on JSA to work, or forced them into training for a trade that is needed. I say forced, I mean incentivise. By cutting their benefits.

Dont you mean reward them with money for their efforts, no effort no reward!

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

I say forced, I mean incentivise. By cutting their benefits.

Cutting my benefits would only serve to incentivise me into criminal activity.

It is a very complicated problem that simple solutions will not solve. I'm not even going to suggest anything, and I'm sure you can probably guess the kind of direction I would be going in if I did.

 

[tek-monkey]

I say forced, I mean incentivise. By cutting their benefits.

Cutting my benefits would only serve to incentivise me into criminal activity.

But not to work? I wonder how many are the same, would rather be a drug dealer of thief than actually earn money normally? Then of course we have the overcrowded prisons issue, which this wouldn't help.

It is a very complicated problem that simple solutions will not solve. I'm not even going to suggest anything, and I'm sure you can probably guess the kind of direction I would be going in if I did.

I can't even start to comprehend how they can still support those in need, without crippling those who they need. I'm guessing they'll print more money and leave it for the tories to sort out.

 

[basil]

Benefits need to be cut, they cost us way too much. However, people need to live, and the job market is in a bad state. I'd propose a multi tier benefits system, where the longer you claim the less you get. It is after all just supposed to be a safety net.

I'd also like to know how many immigrants have tax paying jobs in the UK, and how many are claiming some form of benefits.

EDIT: Thats not for racist reasons, I just remember that we were told we needed all these immigrants to take up jobs that weren't being filled. We should have just forced those on JSA to work, or forced them into training for a trade that is needed. I say forced, I mean incentivise. By cutting their benefits.

Immigrants? do you mean the ones that the daily mail try to scare us with, or ones that have been here for over 50yrs and are now maybe retired yet need state support due to their circumstance. The NHS is a 'form of benefit' which without immigrant labour both skilled and unskilled would collapse overnight. Surely once you are allowed into a country you should receive the same rights and protection as everyone else? I know of a certain european leader who had a different view, sadly in hard times the blame culture gets stronger and looks for the easier targets in society........

 

[shoes]

Reducing benefits is one thing, maybe just changing how they're distributed would be better.

I for one don't want to see pensioners or the disables with even less than they already have. Nor do I want to see all these people who were made redundant recently to suffer more than necessary. As tek has said though, it is only meant to be a safety net, so perhaps instead of handing out cash we should hand out food stamps. This is all sounding very familiar.

Imagine if the government struck a deal with the top 10 supermarket chains, essentially guaranteeing loads of business if they cut the price. This is economies of scale and is used in every business worldwide. This I'm sure would reduce not only the amount of money spend on job seekers but it would also stimulate the economy with medium margin items, as opposed to items such as cigarettes / alcohol / dvd's etc.

Clothing should be provided by the state if deemed necessary too.

The next step is job allocation. I'm sick of reading "mass unemployment" on one page and then "immigrants are snapping up jobs left right and centre" on the next. Why the feck do we not just force people into jobs and if they don't like it - tough. Do it until you are in a position to find another job. There is incentive right there, starting with those who have been on it the longest. Under my regime simply being fat and/or lazy wouldn't be considered a disability. You'd be more likely to get a job landscaping to help you shift the spare tyre.

Cut immigration back a bit (not necessarily totally) and fill the 'job defecit' with the queue at the job centre.

Raise the minimum wage to make it so that you are actually better off working than not.

That deals with the current problem. The long term goal is to stop the poor procreating willy nilly and give the education some of this saved money to enable a more rounded and better educated next generation so more people have more choice as to what career path they follow. At the moment the avenues for unskilled people are ever dcreasing and training isn't as easy as it should be.

The next step would be to FORCE prospering companies to take on people to train on the job, thus helping to combat the experience over qualification problem.

With regard to criminal activity LS how do you mean? I presume shop lifting, that kind of thing to support yourself.

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

I say forced, I mean incentivise. By cutting their benefits.

Cutting my benefits would only serve to incentivise me into criminal activity.

But not to work? I wonder how many are the same, would rather be a drug dealer of thief than actually earn money normally? Then of course we have the overcrowded prisons issue, which this wouldn't help.

You don't just get a job with a click of the fingers. It requires resources to look for and apply for jobs, for a start food so there is actually some energy source to do the physical activity required and be able to concentrate without having to ignore an empty, rumbling stomach.

It is a very complicated problem that simple solutions will not solve. I'm not even going to suggest anything, and I'm sure you can probably guess the kind of direction I would be going in if I did.

I can't even start to comprehend how they can still support those in need, without crippling those who they need. I'm guessing they'll print more money and leave it for the tories to sort out.

Quite the opposite, I can assure you.

 

[shoes]

You don't just get a job with a click of the fingers. It requires resources to look for and apply for jobs, for a start food so there is actually some energy source to do the physical activity required and be able to concentrate without having to ignore an empty, rumbling stomach.

Application forms are a ballache, i think they should be done away with. A CV is more than enough for almost any position and any special requirements can be discussed at the interview stage. I have always felt, and I'm sure that you'll agree, that the company employing needs to make the outlay to find employees including covering reasonable travelling costs.

I understand the point of an application form, but a CV would make applying for jobs much more efficient.

I suppose then that CVs would just get shorter and shorter so that HR people can be arsed to read them.

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

Clothing should be provided by the state if deemed necessary too.

I once went to Dorothy Perkins to pick out clothes for interview, paid for by the Jobcentre. I ended up with a skirt (which I have worn twice in about as many years) and a woolly top (that I have worn more than that, but is generally too hot for summer) and a pair of shoes (that are slightly too big, my own fault really, but I wouldn't wear them much anyway).

Why the feck do we not just force people into jobs and if they don't like it - tough.

This could (and in my case, definitely does) affect people's mental wellbeing, and therefore ability to be productive on the job (therefore they are more likely to get sacked), let alone look for another job.

Raise the minimum wage to make it so that you are actually better off working than not.

I actually agree with you on this one (within the context of the current system - I do not necessarily agree with a minimum wage in all circumstances).

That deals with the current problem.

Not entirely.

The long term goal is to stop the poor procreating willy nilly

The poor don't procreate 'willy nilly'.

and give the education some of this saved money to enable a more rounded and better educated next generation so more people have more choice as to what career path they follow. At the moment the avenues for unskilled people are ever dcreasing and training isn't as easy as it should be.

The next step would be to FORCE prospering companies to take on people to train on the job, thus helping to combat the experience over qualification problem.

I generally agree with this part though.

With regard to criminal activity LS how do you mean? I presume shop lifting, that kind of thing to support yourself.

I was thinking more DIY enterprise - cash-in-hand work (the job may or may not be illegal in itself), flogging stolen goods, drug dealing, prostitution and the like.

 

[tek-monkey]

Immigrants? do you mean the ones that the daily mail try to scare us with, or ones that have been here for over 50yrs and are now maybe retired yet need state support due to their circumstance. The NHS is a 'form of benefit' which without immigrant labour both skilled and unskilled would collapse overnight. Surely once you are allowed into a country you should receive the same rights and protection as everyone else? I know of a certain european leader who had a different view, sadly in hard times the blame culture gets stronger and looks for the easier targets in society........

Yeah, the daily mail ones! Whilst I agree the NHS relies on immigrants, there is no reason for this. I know quite a few UK trained medical people who have upped sticks and emigrated because the prospects are better, we need to address this. We should not have to train these people at great expense for them to **** off once qualified, nor should we be depriving poorer nations of their own skilled people. Make the training easier on them, make it free with a grant, but require a period of work in the UK after graduation. If defaulted, they owe for their education.

The UK work ethic also needs addressing, people feel they just don't have to work. The lowest paid jobs are pointless to some, as they get the same doing nothing. That needs to be adressed, not sure how though. The recent immigrants should not have been able to find work at all, what with 2m on the dole already. Shoes idea about forced apprenticeships is a good one, require a percentage of positions filled each year to be training ones.

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

You don't just get a job with a click of the fingers. It requires resources to look for and apply for jobs, for a start food so there is actually some energy source to do the physical activity required and be able to concentrate without having to ignore an empty, rumbling stomach.

Application forms are a ballache, i think they should be done away with. A CV is more than enough for almost any position and any special requirements can be discussed at the interview stage. I have always felt, and I'm sure that you'll agree, that the company employing needs to make the outlay to find employees including covering reasonable travelling costs.

I understand the point of an application form, but a CV would make applying for jobs much more efficient.

I suppose then that CVs would just get shorter and shorter so that HR people can be arsed to read them.

LOL... I thought that in the olden days we just walked into a place, had a quick chat with the boss and started work the next day - that would be a lot easier.

 

[tek-monkey]

LOL... I thought that in the olden days we just walked into a place, had a quick chat with the boss and started work the next day - that would be a lot easier.

I've actually had most of my jobs like that!

 

[shoes]

Haha yeah I have had a couple like that too.

The job I'm in now was brilliant, my housemate mentioned I was good at what I did, they phoned me and went to see them. Next thing I know they have pulled a brand new job out of their arse and given it to me. A position they didn't even know they had to fill.

Sometimes the best jobs don't come from the normal application process but from an element of luck.

LS - what kind of career would you feel comfortable in, what line or work or industry or whatever? I'm just curious, I'm not going to judge you (for once).

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

LOL... I thought that in the olden days we just walked into a place, had a quick chat with the boss and started work the next day - that would be a lot easier.

I've actually had most of my jobs like that!

Does anywhere still recruit using that method?

If so, tell me - I really can't be fooked with all this application form, CV, covering letter bollocks that they make you do on New Deal etc. I already know basically everything there is to know about them, I just need someone there to advise me as I'm doing it instead of either writing it for me or looking at it afterwards, because a lot of the time I get stuck halfway through. My work/education history is complicated and gappy but no one has ever actually sat down with me one-to-one to go through it and help me write a CV so that I've got all the right information in the right amount.

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

Haha yeah I have had a couple like that too.

The job I'm in now was brilliant, my housemate mentioned I was good at what I did, they phoned me and went to see them. Next thing I know they have pulled a brand new job out of their arse and given it to me. A position they didn't even know they had to fill.

Sometimes the best jobs don't come from the normal application process but from an element of luck.

LS - what kind of career would you feel comfortable in, what line or work or industry or whatever? I'm just curious, I'm not going to judge you (for once).

Dunno really, I like filing, messing around with all kinds of stationery and I can use a computer. I'm looking at an office or library job at the moment I think, although I'm hoping to have another go at a degree through Open University and then train to be a teacher. Failing that, I'll just be a politician - I think you'll agree that I'm already well qualified: no special skills or knowledge required, full of shit and quite often lazy as feck.

Just not retail or sales - if I end up doing that again (unless it's my own shop or selling an idea) then I may actually kill myself. Although I was almost half tempted by ShakeAway.

 

[shoes]

Dunno really, I like filing, messing around with all kinds of stationery and I can use a computer. I'm looking at an office or library job at the moment I think, although I'm hoping to have another go at a degree through Open University and then train to be a teacher.

You're ahead already then, being able to use a computer is pretty much essential. Sounds like you'd be very suited to a job as an office junior and then work your way up. Perhaps even do an NVQ in management or similar on the job so to speak. Would be boring as hell for a year or so (I know - I've done it) but after that you get more interesting stuff thrown at you, gain skills, experience etc.

Failing that, I'll just be a politician - I think you'll agree that I'm already well qualified: no special skills or knowledge required, full of shit and quite often lazy as feck.

Just not retail or sales - if I end up doing that again (unless it's my own shop or selling an idea) then I may actually kill myself. Although I was almost half tempted by ShakeAway.

Agreed having to deal with the general public is a pain in the arse!!

Send me your CV thus far if you like and I'll give it a good going over and see if i can help you out.