Immigration vs Unemployment

[tek-monkey]

Kind of inspired by the thread that was just closed.

I keep hearing that we need immigrants to support our ageing population, and that its a good thing for the UK. However, I can't understand how more people in the UK is good when not all those here already have jobs? Surely we should make sure those that already live here are being useful before shipping more in? I'm not sure what unemployment levels are like at the min, but don't they usually sit around 2-3 million?

So, if they are out of work, is it because there are no jobs or because they're lazy gits? If there are no jobs, we sure as hell don't need more people. If they are just lazy, we should force them into working rather than letting them sponge off the rest of society while getting others in to do the jobs available. I just fail to understand why, with so many people claiming unemployment benefit, we need more people? (please note I am not including invalidity etc. as these are acceptable reasons in most cases. Not all, these reasons are often scammed too, but I'm talking actual unemployment/jobseekers allowance here). I've claimed jobseekers once, lasted all of 3 months before I was climbing the walls! So what if I have a degree, I still did the argos warehouse like most of Stafford and ended up working in a shop. There are jobs out there, its not really that hard if you're willing to lower your standards.

I'm not racist in any way, I couldn't care less if you were bright blue and came from Pluto, but why do we need more people? We have chavs breeding like cockroaches as it is, surely we'll have enough problems supporting the people already here?

 

[Jheych]

Good stuff.. a sensible post which will no doubt attract some attention . Naturally I have my views on this and will remain sitting in the forum till i have heard what others have to say .

This is a "delicate" issue and I think should be treated as such otherwise it will most likely get closed which would be a bit of a bugger as it's good to hear other peoples opinions on things . so i hope that posters are able to air their views sensibly and without causing offence to others and the like . Admin had a point y'know not enough debate and discussion goes on here . I thought that was the whole purpose of a "forum" .As an adult forum ( not that kind!) we should be able to have intelligent, rational, airings of views .

Theres supposed to be 399 available posters on the forum and thats a lot of possible views and opinions right ? ( assuming some people come back from the dead almost and start using the forum again !) !

So looking forward to hearing what people have to say and doing same .

 

[jimbob23]

So, if they are out of work, is it because there are no jobs or because they're lazy gits? If there are no jobs, we sure as hell don't need more people. If they are just lazy, we should force them into working rather than letting them sponge off the rest of society while getting others in to do the jobs available.

I think the lazy gits is the more accurate option.

And you're right, we should be forcing them into work, but we're not. It's far too easy to keep sponging off the state, and (rash generalisation alert) most of the immigrant workers are prepared to work 5 times as hard as said lazy gits who are already here.

If they want to come and do the jobs our own lazy gits can't be arsed to do and earn a fair wage, then fair play to them I say.

What I object to is the craziness of a system where immigrant workers are receiving tax credits for their kids who still live in their home countries while you get stories like the British bloke who's had to go and take a security job in another country to earn better money to build an extension on his house to keep his daughter's wheelchair in, because our government won't give him the dosh, resulting in him not seeing his disabled daughter for 2 months.

I personally believe that in an ideal world, anyone from any country should be able to go anywhere and do anything for a living. However, it's far from an ideal world, and it's one where there are a number of complex political systems which prevent this from happening.

As things stand I think our government should make it far harder for Brits to scrounge off the tax payer in the first place and get them into work, which, by pure mathematics would surely mean more tax monies raised and less spent.

Regardless of whether this were to be achieved, I have no problem with anyone from anywhere else coming to work here. However, I believe they should only come if somehow they can prove they are coming to take gainful employment, and I don't think they should be given perks for their family back home.

If they were to be taking jobs away from British people though, that may start to cause problems, but at the moment I don't think that's the case at all.

I get the impression that politicians are unwilling to impose any kind of restriction because these days there are certain sections of society who are all too ready to brand anyone a fascist for displaying what used to be called common sense.

 

[dylanf]

I'm an immigrant and tek-monkey's comment is a load of b0ll0cks.

Most immigrants in this country do jobs locals dont want to do. Take the shell petrol station in Stone for example. The shell garage was always struggling to get staff. I forever saw job advertisements in the petrol station.

Now they employ immigrants and very rarely see a job vacancy.

Another fact to point out is that unemployment is actually very low. Even when you take into account all the lazy asses out there. Therefore, immigrants cant be taking up valuable British jobs.

On a side note, I employ Tech-Monkey, and we shall be having words in about 5 minutes.

 

[tek-monkey]

I think the lazy gits is the more accurate option.

And you're right, we should be forcing them into work, but we're not. It's far too easy to keep sponging off the state, and (rash generalisation alert) most of the immigrant workers are prepared to work 5 times as hard as said lazy gits who are already here.

more words followed....

Gotta agree to be honest, its too easy for some people to scrounge so they won't work, so I agree the immigrants are needed in that respect. What we need is to stop the benefit culture in this country, and thats not really that hard when you think about it. Reducing those on benefits is a twofold benefit, because as said it reduces benefits spent and increases tax revenues gained. Anyway, here's how I'd play it:

1) People should have a limited time on benefits, after about 6 months cut the amount they receive by a significant amount. Make them HAVE to work, not choose to.

2) Don't give them money, all housing benefits should go to the people they rent the houses off, a large portion of their benefits should be in vouchers for shops. Alcohol and cigarettes should not be able to be purchased with them.

3) Child benefits are calculated from the day you claim. Popping out more sprogs does not entitle you to more money, you will be offered a free abortion if wanted. If not, you support the kid not the state. Condoms are already freely available, use them FFS.

4) Just going to the job centre is not enough, they should make you phone at least one job every time you go. If you don't go to the interview, benefits are cut.

There are probably a few more I could think of, I'll post back later tonight.

Although, all that said, when I was on benefits I couldn't live off them! Was allowed £31 a week housing benefit FFS, where can you live for that? Apparently I just wasn't creative enough when (app)lying for it. So I propose a further rule, contribution based benefits. For the first 2 months you receive a larger benefit allowance, to help when searching for your new job. This should be allowed only once every 5 years or so to discourage people using it as a holiday.

 

[tek-monkey]

On a side note, I employ Tech-Monkey, and we shall be having words in about 5 minutes.

Erm, immigrants rule!

 

[MISS T]

This article was in the Newsletter re: Stopping TB immunisations for our children

Marie Thorpe mentioned in the article is my Aunty and she has a website you can find at the bottom of the page.

The problem being the government, will now only allow immigrants to have the essential life saving jab. British school children will no longer be considered as 'at risk' .

edit: file not found, I'll keep searching.

Here we go.
http://www.staffordshirenewsletter.co.uk/staffordshirenewsletter-news/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=136579

 

[gon2seed]

Just to clarify things. My response in the other thread, was purely to the posts of Aged Parent and Lunar Scorpian. I didn't want to imply anything about Wookie or tek-monkey's posts, and I didn't consider them in my reply. It looks like I was hooked by Lunar Scorpian's Trolling. Oh for the innocent days when a Troll jumped out from under the rickety bridge and attempted to eat the Billy Goats Gruff!

Do I feel duped, or foolish? Not at all. I am unlikely ignore inflamitory statements, particularly when they are that inflamitory. Evil flourishes when good people do nothing, not that in anyway I consider myself good you understand, but you know what I mean.

I have strong opinions about the amount of people in this country who have children very early in life, with no plans of how to support them, and then get into a poverty trap, which actually encourages them to have more kids! Do I blame them, well no! This is a societal failure, immature kids with no prospects, low self-esteem, the burger flippping generation, who see X-factor, or a boob job as the way out! And because I see it as a societal failure, we all share the blame a bit. What can be done? I haven't a clue. I just shake my head at the results in disbelief.

What I do try to do, is raise my own kids with some values, and challenge poor behaviour in others when I see it. I have escaped a beating by the skin of my teeth on more than one occaision, but if we all walk by on the other side things can only get worse. I am not talking about vigilantiasm, and don't expect everyone to verbally intervene, but those of us who can, should do more, and that includes me.

Kids need and actually want boundaries, and when they have none, they go off the rails. We all need to be aware that we get the children we deserve, and we need to be the best models we can.

Please do not get the idea that I think I am some paragon of virtue, far from it! I have been an appalling parent at times, a lousy father, and frequently a poor husband, but I try to learn from mistakes, and was lucky enough to have a set of values passed on to me by my parents and society.

So to sum up, I get t*ts off at times with the way our country is going, but I am also aware that I can have some influence over my own circumstances, and I have an effect on others.

End of Sermon. Feel free to send this to the rant thread Admin! I am going to be embarrassed when I read this back!

PS I blame Mrs Thatch' really, "No such thing as society" What a load of £^%!$~*

 

[gon2seed]

Can't resist another pop!

"Racism", has it outlived its usefulness as a term?

I am riven with predjudice. I have negative gut feelings about all sorts of groups. Posh people, Fox Hunters, Tories, Travellers, Accountants, but also Americans (USA), Germans, etc, etc. Now what is the difference with predjudices based on race or nationality? I know the definition, says predjudice with power, or something like that, but it gets very confusing when considering, for example, the clear predjudice between Muslims and Hindus and Sikhs in India.

Racism has become at term that causes mayhem when uttered, and is frequently used by people who have no idea what they mean, or have not considered the consequences of its use.

People frequently say I am not racist and I can understand why, but they would surely be comfortable to admit to predjudices, we all have them, its what you do with them that counts. I have predjudices about lots of racial groups, negative associations pop into my head at the mention of lots of races, placed there no doubt by 1,000s of influences, parents, friends, media, etc. So I have racial predjudices, could I be described as a racist? You be the judge.

 

[tek-monkey]

If you hate the french, you're a racist

 

[Admin]

This is a "delicate" issue and I think should be treated as such otherwise it will most likely get closed which would be a bit of a bugger as it's good to hear other peoples opinions on things .

Don't worry about me closing the thread. That will only ever happen if I feel the thread has gone so wildly off-topic that there is no hope for redemption. Even if someone were immature enough to resort to personal insults, I would simply remove the individual posts and keep the thread open.

I will also not censor people's opinions. If you come on here and profess your love for extreme right/left policies, then so be it. As long as I feel you are not deliberately trolling and you just want to express and explain your beliefs, then that's fine by me, no matter how controversial your thoughts may be.

It's not often I close threads, and I would hate to think that there are people out there who are put off expressing their true feelings as they think I am some kind of "do-gooding" ogre who is trying to sanitise The Forum!

 

[tek-monkey]

Glad to hear it, and I'm pretty sure we can behave ourselves enough to have a serious discussion. I really am interested on peoples views on this one, I've already changed stance from why do we need immigrants to why do we need chavs! The article Miss T provided though does highlight something which promotes hatred of immigrants - them being treated better than us by our own government. If that path continues, people will become more right wing.

I get the impression that politicians are unwilling to impose any kind of restriction because these days there are certain sections of society who are all too ready to brand anyone a fascist for displaying what used to be called common sense.

Unfortunately true, for now anyway.

 

[db]

And you're right, we should be forcing them into work, but we're not. It's far too easy to keep sponging off the state, and (rash generalisation alert) most of the immigrant workers are prepared to work 5 times as hard as said lazy gits who are already here.

indeed.. aren't the conservatives proposing a system whereby if you're offered a job that you are feasibly able to do, yet you turn it down, you don't get any benefits? sounds good to me.. yes, yes - i'm sure someone will pick holes in it, but surely it must be better than the "system" we have now??

I get the impression that politicians are unwilling to impose any kind of restriction because these days there are certain sections of society who are all too ready to brand anyone a fascist for displaying what used to be called common sense.

i think the fact that more and more sane and rational people are giving credance to those nutjobs BNP is a sad indication of the borderline civil war that seems to be looming, and i think the point you make here is one of the factors..

 

[simon]

I don't think that there's a bad point been made on this thread...maybe I'll change that!...(Not really!) With regards to immigrant workers I think we should have a policy like Australia or Canada has on immigration, I know I don't know then inside out, but I do know there based on a points scoring system, skilled jobs, savings in the bank etc = higher points, thus surely increasing the number of people that come here to work? I don't mind people from other countries coming here to work, I must admit I'd prefer the jobs to go to our unemployed, but as already pointed out, they are too lazy etc etc, this no doubt has been instilled in them since childhood. I was always led to believe that you have to work for the nice things in life and that's what I'm trying to do!., I'm constantly reminded about hard graft by my Grandad, who worked 6 days a week, most weeks, for GEC (apart from national service) for about 50 years or something stupid!
With regards to our youth unemployment if your leaving school at 16 without a job or job offer you serve national service for a couple of years, staying on at school to further your education, your spared!
Also, I think that it's a bit too easy to be a young single parent, there is no hardship in it anymore, you get pregnant at 16, your parents say there kicking you out, you get a council house and all the benefits you need, in fact your probably better off not to work if you're a single parent, I know someone who had a lovely house on meadowcroft park, loved it there, until they built a block of flats for single mums, who, weren't so single and had chav boyfriends with max power cars revving up all day long, they certainly didn't have jobs, come to think of it how could they afford cars?
Want dole money? 37&1/2 hours community service per week please! Well as many hours as the dole money stretches on the minimum wage!
I can see that I've outlined a few policies there, watch out Gord!

I don't know if this makes much sense, I apologise if it doesn't!

 

[dylanf]

Some Figures

People claiming job seekers 957,000
People is some kind of employment 28.94 million
Unemployment level 1,677,000

These firgures are about 12 Months out but cant be that different at the moment.
http://www.incomesdata.co.uk/statistics/statempl.htm

I think one of the problems while discussing this topick is that the statistics offered by the government are pretty usless. They dont mean anything. 28.94 Million employed. Does this include casual labour, or part time work.

The main topic of this thread was basically "Do we need more immigrants" and somewhere along the line single mothers got picked on as well.

Personally I think yes we do. From the figures the unemployment level look quite low. However I also believe we shoudnt just let anybody in the country. As mentioned before by someone else I think we need a points system like they have in Australia and Canada.

And as for our "Chav" problem. I dont think its up to the government to sort out. Its up to us ourselved to sort out. People rely on the government to sort everything out. I believe governments sole job should be to fight wars and make business. The rest I believe should be up to us.

 

[simon]

That were me going off topic with the single parent thing, sorry got a bit carried away!

i think my point may have been if children are bought up and their main role models (there parents) live off the state and don't work then they will see this as a social norm.

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

Kind of inspired by the thread that was just closed.

I keep hearing that we need immigrants to support our ageing population, and that its a good thing for the UK. However, I can't understand how more people in the UK is good when not all those here already have jobs? Surely we should make sure those that already live here are being useful before shipping more in? I'm not sure what unemployment levels are like at the min, but don't they usually sit around 2-3 million?

So, if they are out of work, is it because there are no jobs or because they're lazy gits? If there are no jobs, we sure as hell don't need more people. If they are just lazy, we should force them into working rather than letting them sponge off the rest of society while getting others in to do the jobs available. I just fail to understand why, with so many people claiming unemployment benefit, we need more people? (please note I am not including invalidity etc. as these are acceptable reasons in most cases. Not all, these reasons are often scammed too, but I'm talking actual unemployment/jobseekers allowance here). I've claimed jobseekers once, lasted all of 3 months before I was climbing the walls! So what if I have a degree, I still did the argos warehouse like most of Stafford and ended up working in a shop. There are jobs out there, its not really that hard if you're willing to lower your standards.

I'm not racist in any way, I couldn't care less if you were bright blue and came from Pluto, but why do we need more people? We have chavs breeding like cockroaches as it is, surely we'll have enough problems supporting the people already here?

I agree with you 100% but I think people should be in a job they don't mind (even if it's only for the people they work with rather than the actual job) - for their own sanity!

 

[tek-monkey]

But, should other people have to support them (through taxes) if they just don't like what jobs are around? I'm of the opinion you should do any job available for now, and leave when a better one comes along. Mind you, I worked 6 years in Zanzibar on and off to get through college/uni, so I'm a glutton for punishment!

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

But, should other people have to support them (through taxes) if they just don't like what jobs are around? I'm of the opinion you should do any job available for now, and leave when a better one comes along. Mind you, I worked 6 years in Zanzibar on and off to get through college/uni, so I'm a glutton for punishment!

There are certain places I would refuse to work due to my own personal values - that is one of them...

 

[tek-monkey]

But given the choice between that and no job, I would (and did) work there. I've never seen unemployment as an option if there are jobs out there, thats down to my own personal values. Its easier if you hate the music, means at least none of your mates are in there enjoying themselves!