Gramaisc
Forum O. G.
I always find it a bit odd that 'liberal' has become a 'bad thing'.
Like Farage or Trump?
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Leave or Remain?
- Thread starter andy w
- Start date
The sad thing is that liberals have fallen over themselves to support any minority cause going and have totally ignored the 'mass'. Too many people feel that main stream parties don't speak for them and indeed the likes of Trump and Farage have capitalised on this detachment. Le Penis doing exactly the same in France.
Gramaisc
Forum O. G.
Withnail
Well-Known Forumite
You'll have to excuse me a bit because I'm having to tippety-tap this out on a touchscreen, and will by necessity have to be briefer than I would like. I 'd also prefer to reply to other individual comments separately but it has already tried my patience to deliver this preamble.
It is always instructive to know from whence you have come in order to understand where you are going. Now is one of those times where it matters all the more.
I'm actually pretty outraged at the way this has been spun by the Mail and Express in particular, but the Telegraph and Sun are not far behind, in that they are either entirely ignorant, which would be fairly inexcusable for an operation purporting to be a news agency, or willfully ignorant, which would of course be much worse, of what this ruling from the High Court actually means.
The judges had to deliver a ruling - had to, this was a case brought before them, it's not like they instigated it themselves - on a particular legal aspect of the constitutional arrangements of a country that has no written constitution that instead relies on precedent on constitutional matters.
Their ruling was not anything even remotely about 'overturning' anything - they had to rule upon whether the government (do I really have to explain again that the government ISN'T parliament but a branch OF it?) had the authority, under the power of the royal prerogative, to enact Article 50, or whether the said government needed parliamentary approval, in the form of an Act of Parliament, to enact Article 50.
The court adjudicated - the government needs to have an Act of Parliament to 'trigger', as would appear to be the received vernacular, Article 50.
That is literally all they did. Were they right? Probably, how the hell should I know? One thing that unites a huge amount of the population is their commonality in not being High Court judges. I would imagine that slightly more than 99% of us aren't.
But what does this all actually mean? Not a lot.
Consider this - until the UK has invoked Article 50, no one - not the government, not parliament, nor even Sid or Doris Bonkers, are even allowed to BEGIN to enter any discussions about what 'Brexit' actually means. Parliament may debate what shape those negotiations might take, but no one is in any position to give any assurances as to what may or may not proceed from them. The question before the House will be clear, and it will be someting along the lines of 'does this house give us the authority to enact Article 50?'
The answer to that question will be 'Yes', for it could not realistically be anything other. MPs with constituencies that had a clear majority for Remain, particularly the SNP (what 60 of them at most?), would be perfectly entitled to say no, but that would still leave a clear majority of MPs that wouldn't even need a whip to pass it.
The Lord's might dick around with it a bit, but they wouldn't be able to destroy it - they wouldn't be able to dick with it enough to make March 2017 unrealistic, appeal victory or no.
It will happen - it will be disastrous, certainly - but it will happen. The court ruling changes nothing, it simply clarifies the legal framework in which it will disastrously happen.
For the rabid soi dissant Fourth Estate to react to this verdict in the way that they have - feckin' 'enemies of the state'? feckin' really? - i repeat is shameful beyond proper expression. The Eye refers to the Street of Shame but this this goes beyond shame, it is almost seditious.
If they had any shame they should publish apologies immediately and prominently. This simply will not do.
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John Marwood
I ♥ cryptic crosswords
The electorate don't decide anything
Politicians don't decide anything
The rich powerful often faceless elite decide our fate
The friends of these elite will have the final say
The number of bars and gold reveals the wearer’s rank:
Duke - 4 rows
Marquess - 3½ rows
Earl - 3 rows
Viscount - 2½ rows
Baron - 2 rows
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hop
Well-Known Forumite
What a crazy notion, following that train of thought we will have to settle for very low quality, the current generation of politicians aren't exactly high calibre. We have settled for mediocrity and as a result it's hardly surprising most politicians are held with contempt.
We should instead have the very brightest and most capable making the decisions, however this is never going to happen with the current low rate of pay. I find it surpring that MPs only earn 75k a year and for this pittance receive a large amount of criticism from the press over pay.
Why would someone who is smart and capable choose to work for in politics when they would receive far greater rewards in business.
tek-monkey
wanna see my snake?
John Marwood
I ♥ cryptic crosswords
If you get chance to watch Have I Got News For You from last night ...
Rather a good episode..
Excellent start
Can't manage a link unfortunately............
Rather a good episode..
Excellent start
Can't manage a link unfortunately............
John Marwood
I ♥ cryptic crosswords
proactive
Enjoying a drop of red.
John Marwood
I ♥ cryptic crosswords
No we need politicians from a wide range of backgrounds, The problem over the past 20 years is many of our MPs have came from University then straight in as an intern then a party staffer then selected as a candidate. All too often they haven't done anything outside of politics. Also there is a tendency to select Bright Young Things as a candidate over more older experienced people.
I've posted on here before that back in 1979 there were 95 MPs from manual trades backgrounds and that by 2010 that figure had fallen to just 26. No wonder many people in this country feel that they can't relate to politicians who all often speak in a language that goes straight over peoples heads.
Of course we should have the brightest and the best governing us but some of the MPs I've met have came over to me as a little naïve and a bit wet behind the ears. A person being very intelligent doesn't always mean that he or she is wise to the world and understand people.
Gramaisc
Forum O. G.
Parties need your votes, that's all they care about, they pick candidates that people will vote for. If people would really vote in larger numbers for other candidates, then they would be selected, in general. Who the 'representative' actually is is of little interest to the party.
People voted for Farage because he's "one of us", standing there with his pint in hand. He is no more "one of us" than Boris Johnson is.
I know people on minimum wage who will never vote for Corbyn because he's a traitor who won't sing the National Anthem - genuinely.
It's basically hopeless, but giving it all to another bunch of right-wing gangsters looking after themselves is unlikely to make it much better.
Try standing as a Working Class Candidate and see how many vote for you.
People voted for Farage because he's "one of us", standing there with his pint in hand. He is no more "one of us" than Boris Johnson is.
I know people on minimum wage who will never vote for Corbyn because he's a traitor who won't sing the National Anthem - genuinely.
It's basically hopeless, but giving it all to another bunch of right-wing gangsters looking after themselves is unlikely to make it much better.
Try standing as a Working Class Candidate and see how many vote for you.
Laurie61
Well-Known Forumite
The political system in the UK has been in need of a makeover for years, think I may have the answer though and will be testing it tonight.
tek-monkey
wanna see my snake?
I know some who won't because he supports terrorism. This would be fine if their example wasn't Israel / Palestine, turns out I support terrorism too!
shoes
Well-Known Forumite
Meh probably.... but that'll all be forgotten about soon enough, whereas leaving the EU is going to f**k us over for generations to come.
The former is definitely better.
tek-monkey
wanna see my snake?
I'm hoping the vote in parliament will delay things enough for the shit to actually hit the fan, once shopping goes up by 15% but wages and dole money stay stagnant people may start to realise what they have voted for.
On the plus side it certainly curbed my spending on gadgets, becoming rather expensive to import directly!
On the plus side it certainly curbed my spending on gadgets, becoming rather expensive to import directly!
Gramaisc
Forum O. G.
It's not quite that simple, as we've seen - if it looks like it might not happen as predicted (even if just for a while), then the shit/fan interface moves apart - only when things are inevitable does the real outcome start to happen and, even then, it takes a good while for the outcome to be apparent....
You can, if you know what you're doing, play the system to your advantage. My only nest-egg in Sterling is in the hands of some lad who has managed to put 14% on the value since last October, without a penny input from me - and he's probably had a few quid for himself.
Ultimately, it is the poor that will be hit hardest here.