The moral argument of eating meat & dairy

[Withnail]

I fail to understand the point.

Indeed, sorry about that.

All this talk of chickens with values rather spun me off on one - brutal birds, chickens. Next thing you know i'm thinking about 8 foot high killer-chickens and what they might be thinking as they bear down on you. It is, i'll freely admit, a personal fault. Brutal birds, though, chickens.

TBF some of the links you provide do tend to have their WTF? moments that are apt to make a poor boy's head spin. This -

I err on the side of sentience and I do not intentionally kill [insects]. Indeed, I exercise caution when I walk so as not to kill or injure them.

- for example is, frankly, laughable. Quite apart from how ludicrous it sounds, it ignores the fact that even if you ate only organically grown fruit 'n' veg there is no escaping the fact that they will have been farmed using pesticides. You simply cannot say that 'no insects were harmed in the making of this head of broccoli', sort of thing.

 

[henryscat]

Indeed, sorry about that.

All this talk of chickens with values rather spun me off on one - brutal birds, chickens. Next thing you know i'm thinking about 8 foot high killer-chickens and what they might be thinking as they bear down on you. It is, i'll freely admit, a personal fault. Brutal birds, though, chickens.

Too many horror films?

TBF some of the links you provide do tend to have their WTF? moments that are apt to make a poor boy's head spin. This -

Some of Francione's thinking takes a little bit of getting around, but when you think about it more he makes perfect sense.

for example is, frankly, laughable. Quite apart from how ludicrous it sounds, it ignores the fact that even if you ate only organically grown fruit 'n' veg there is no escaping the fact that they will have been farmed using pesticides. You simply cannot say that 'no insects were harmed in the making of this head of broccoli', sort of thing.

By being vegan you can minimise harm to insects too though... Eating meat means feeding plants to animals. A meat based diet is contingent upon feeding a large quanity of plants to animals to produce meat, which is an inefficient use of plants as well as more plants than necessary being sprayed. A vegan diet requires less land area under cultivation per person and, therefore, minimises any harm caused to insects and wildlife by agriculture.

I think it is a fair point for him to make about being careful to not kill insects where possible - for instance, you can look out for snails on the patio to not step on them, or choose not to batter the bee that has flown in through the winow. The key word in his sentence is "intent" I would say. Eating a head of broccoli does not involve intent to kill...

 

[tek-monkey]

Is intent to consume intent to kill?

 

[shoes]

Speak for yourself - i've just hurt my knee.

 

[Withnail]

The key word in his sentence is "intent" I would say. Eating a head of broccoli does not involve intent to kill...

But the key suffix in 'pesticide' is '-cide', [L caedere to kill] - treating a head of broccoli with pesticide very much involves an intent to kill.

I'm afraid this Francione chap is on a hiding to nothing with this line of thought.

 

[henryscat]

But the key suffix in 'pesticide' is '-cide', [L caedere to kill] - treating a head of broccoli with pesticide very much involves an intent to kill.

I'm afraid this Francione chap is on a hiding to nothing with this line of thought.

You can identify any aspect of human existence and link it to some harm. I don't think there is any question that a) we can minimise that harm and that b) in terms of what we eat, being vegan indisputably does not exploit animals and causes far less harm than a non-vegan diet.

 

[tek-monkey]

You can identify any aspect of human existence and link it to some harm. I don't think there is any question that a) we can minimise that harm and that b) in terms of what we eat, being vegan indisputably does not exploit animals and causes far less harm than a non-vegan diet.

What I'd say is this.... Whilst doing less harm may always be "better" than doing more harm, that doesn't make it right to still cause harm.

 

[Withnail]

All i'll say is that if you are determined to pursue a path that 'errs on the side' of determining that insects are sentient, such that not so much as an single carrot fly is allowed to perish in the name of food production, you are going to be one very hungry boy.

 

[henryscat]

All i'll say is that if you are determined to pursue a path that 'errs on the side' of determining that insects are sentient, such that not so much as an single carrot fly is allowed to perish in the name of food production, you are going to be one very hungry boy.

Francione does not claim that humans can live a harm free existence. What is clear is that we have no need whatsoever of exploiting animals and should accord them the right not to be property.

 

[kyoto49]

You can identify any aspect of human existence and link it to some harm. I don't think there is any question that a) we can minimise that harm and that b) in terms of what we eat, being vegan indisputably does not exploit animals and causes far less harm than a non-vegan diet.

Henryscat, you consistantly state the immorality of eating meat, but also are equally scathing of the dairy industry. I don't agree with how judgemental you can be in regard to those who don't agree with you, but I do applaud your fundamental beliefs. However............

It's not as simple as you sometimes make it, this living with minimum harm. We don't eat meat, it's easy! But we do eat dairy products. Knowing the cruelty involved in the dairy industry, we've been making a concerted effort to cut down our consumption. We've been using Almond milk for hot bedtime drinks and on cereals (it's shite in coffee and tea) and our dairy milk consumption has reduced significantly. We tried some Soya yoghurt the other day which we enjoyed. However, further investigation of the Soya growing industry and we find that it is the direct cause of the deforestation of huge swathes of virgin Amazon rainforest beside other undesirable things.

It seems that we have the harm done to dairy cows and their progeny on one hand against the harm done to the Amazon on the other. it's not quite as straight forward as you would have us think this do no harm concept. So we weighed out the pro's and cons of both and came to the conclusion that by supporting the British dairy industry we are causing less global harm than by supporting the global Soya bean industry.

Whilst I would never condone the suffering incurred by the Dairy cow and her offspring, in our opinion the mass destruction of the Amazon rainforest, land that can never be replaced, alongside the langrabbing and slavery required to produce the soya, as well as the negative environmental affects of these activities is worse than that inflicted by the British dairy industry to produce dairy products. Being vegan might not directly cause the exploitation of animals, but if you eat any product such as soya that is directly linked with the mass destruction of the Amazon rainforest then you are directly linked with the destruction of animal habitat. It's not animal exploitation, but it could quite easily be animal species extinction

It ay easy this doing no harm!!

 

[henryscat]

Henryscat, you consistantly state the immorality of eating meat, but also are equally scathing of the dairy industry. I don't agree with how judgemental you can be in regard to those who don't agree with you, but I do applaud your fundamental beliefs. However............

It's not as simple as you sometimes make it, this living with minimum harm. We don't eat meat, it's easy! But we do eat dairy products. Knowing the cruelty involved in the dairy industry, we've been making a concerted effort to cut down our consumption. We've been using Almond milk for hot bedtime drinks and on cereals (it's shite in coffee and tea) and our dairy milk consumption has reduced significantly. We tried some Soya yoghurt the other day which we enjoyed. However, further investigation of the Soya growing industry and we find that it is the direct cause of the deforestation of huge swathes of virgin Amazon rainforest beside other undesirable things.

It seems that we have the harm done to dairy cows and their progeny on one hand against the harm done to the Amazon on the other. it's not quite as straight forward as you would have us think this do no harm concept. So we weighed out the pro's and cons of both and came to the conclusion that by supporting the British dairy industry we are causing less global harm than by supporting the global Soya bean industry.

Whilst I would never condone the suffering incurred by the Dairy cow and her offspring, in our opinion the mass destruction of the Amazon rainforest, land that can never be replaced, alongside the langrabbing and slavery required to produce the soya, as well as the negative environmental affects of these activities is worse than that inflicted by the British dairy industry to produce dairy products. Being vegan might not directly cause the exploitation of animals, but if you eat any product such as soya that is directly linked with the mass destruction of the Amazon rainforest then you are directly linked with the destruction of animal habitat. It's not animal exploitation, but it could quite easily be animal species extinction

It ay easy this doing no harm!!

I agree that soya crops are a big concern, but going vegan is entirely consistent with protecting the environment including the rainforest.

Looking at various sources - only around 6% of the soya crop is actually used to directly feed people, mostly of that in Asia. 97% of soya meal or about 85% of the soya crop goes on feeding animals for meat or dairy. In the UK, feed (rather than grass) forms about half of what is fed to dairy cows even in summer. The UK imports a lot of its soya used for animal feed from the areas you are concerned about.

Putting aside for a second that I do not believe there are any circumstances in which exploiting cows for their milk can be justified, concern for the environment also points to not consuming dairy. Feeding crops to animals and then eating animal products is a hugely inefficient use of crops - including Amazonian soya. Consumption of dairy is directly linked to Amazonian soya which is fed to cows in the UK.

It is possible to avoid soya completely, as you mention there are products like almond milk but also others made from rice, coconut, peas, or oats. Looking at Alpro's website as an example, they source all their soya from Europe, Canada and China so they are able to state none of their soya products are linked to deforestation.

Aside from the issues of animal explotiation and use of crops, cows are also massive produces of methane gas contributing to climate change.

 

[Goldilocks]

This is very interesting, I have a question Soy is used in tofu, soy milk and various dairy and meat substitutes. It is also used in fermented foods like miso, natto and tempeh too.

So what about vegans who have a thyroid problem? I'm not vegan but I am hypothyroid and avoid soy as it disrupts my hormones as it's a goitrogen, which can cause a goiter, trigger the disease itself if you don't have it or slow it down completely. More so in places that are iodine deficient. How do you know if it's genetically modified? Do you just buy organic?

What are other substitutes for vegans?

Thanks

 

[Gramaisc]

I am hypothyroid

People with hypothyroidism used to be thought of as cretins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretinism

 

[Goldilocks]

People with hypothyroidism used to be thought of as cretins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretinism

Ha ha ha as cretins

It is an actual illness, unfortunately mines hereditary and due to having my son.

It's not an excuse tho for people to say they can't lose weight or feel sorry for themselves. With the right diet and exercise you can achieve anything!

It took me a year to start sweating again as gross as that is ha ha

 

[Goldilocks]

As far as I'm aware I'm normal and not a lunatic unless it's a full moon

 

[proactive]

As far as I'm aware I'm normal and not a lunatic unless it's a full moon

That won't last long if you move to Stafford.

 

[Goldilocks]

That won't last long if you move to Stafford.

Why? Is it always a full moon

 

[Noah]

Why? Is it always a full moon

Alas no.

 

[Goldilocks]

Alas no.

 

[Goldilocks]

Is that what you're all saying?