2019 General Election

Carole

Well-Known Forumite
@Gadget
I’m so sorry if I’ve offended you.
I was very careful in my post to say, several times, that those in need should get the support that they require.
I don’t know you, I’m not aware of your circumstances, but not once did I compare you or tar you with the same brush as a feckless father.
Why would I?
I was speaking generally about how some people don’t understand that actions have consequences.
Again, I apologise if my words have upset you but I reiterate, again, that those who can’t work, or have circumstances that make them unable to work should absolutely be given the help and assistance that they require.
 

Mikinton

Well-Known Forumite
10 million obese people in the UK

Tax, heavily tax, sugar, fat, alcohol

Increasing revenues, reducing hospital appointments

Never going to win any votes, but do it anyway

Yeh

Go on

I dares ya
One of the things I never seem to see mentioned is that given that the state picks up the tab for the nation's healthcare (NHS / "free at the point of use"), it has every right to "tell" people how to live their lives through tax inducements like the ones you've mentioned. "No MMR vaccine, madam? Sorry, but you'll have make other arrangements for your child during the day. The grandparents perhaps?"
 

Gadget

Well-Known Forumite
@Gadget
I’m so sorry if I’ve offended you.
I was very careful in my post to say, several times, that those in need should get the support that they require.
I don’t know you, I’m not aware of your circumstances, but not once did I compare you or tar you with the same brush as a feckless father.
Why would I?
I was speaking generally about how some people don’t understand that actions have consequences.
Again, I apologise if my words have upset you but I reiterate, again, that those who can’t work, or have circumstances that make them unable to work should absolutely be given the help and assistance that they require.

I wasn't particularly aiming that statement at you other than to explain why I felt upset. I'm sorry if you thought I was. I just used your father statement to illustrate how that is used quite often to defend policies that they thought were aiming at those but are waay too broad and catch all kinds of people with the shrapnel. I didn't think you were referencing me as I'm a Mom lol.
 

Lucy

Well-Known Forumite
My ultimate boss worked for Cauldwell. He was actually telling me last week how mean he was. They had tiny desks and no free facilities.

Anyway, let's see the manifesto. If my tax rate rises (I don't earn over £80k) I might pay an extra penny in the pound. I can afford to do that to help things like the NHS etc.

I often think the tactics with these stories is to present them in such a way that it makes it look like you are taxed the extra on your whole income, not just your income over the threshold.

The best way to pay less tax if you feel you pay too much? Put lots of money in your pension, goodness knows you'll need it.
 
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Carole

Well-Known Forumite
My ultimate boss worked for Cauldwell. He was actually telling me last week how mean he was. They had tiny desks and no free facilities.

Anyway, let's see the manifesto. If my tax rate rises (I don't earn over £80k) I might pay an extra penny in the pound. I can afford to do that to help things like the NHS etc.

The best way to pay less tax if you feel you pay too much? Put lots of money in your pension, goodness knows you'll need it.

interesting, although John Cauldwell was an example. You could insert the name of any mega rich person there. It was just to make people aware, if they weren’t already, how much the top people pay.

I’ve voted Labour several times in my life but I won’t vote for Labour while Jeremy Corbyn is at the helm. Even people within his own party don’t think he’s fit to run the country.
I’ve never just voted for the same party every time. It depends on who is in charge and who will do the best for the country as a whole.
Quite often the choice is not even who is the best, it’s who is the least worst.

I don’t think anyone would mind paying a few pounds extra if it meant a fully functioning NHS.
As for the pension pot, it’s sensible for anyone to put as much as you can into a pension pot. That’s common sense and nothing to do with politics.
 

Lucy

Well-Known Forumite
I completely agree that the choice is the least worst this time. I just know that the Tories are the most worst for those who can least afford it.
 

Sk84goal

Well-Known Forumite
I don’t believe that all but the most ideologically driven extremists actually believe the dog whistle calls of the two main parties.

Tory – the poor are all lazy scroungers pretending to be the deserving poor. Whilst the 1% are all generous benefactors misunderstood by the masses.

Labour – The 1% are the cause of all your misery whilst the poor are all the salt of the earth , downtrodden by the rich.

Most understand it’s more complex than that.

Do I hate the rich of course not, What I hate is the tax system, I hate the fact the rich can, and some do, employ accountants with the sole purpose of avoiding paying tax. Why do they do that? Is their house going to be re-possessed, are their children hungry? No they are just selfish & greedy and their ‘the moneys mine’ mentality means they do not deserve my respect.

Do I respect and admire entrepreneurs who build companies and generate wealth, of course I do, why wouldn’t I? They are brave risk takers pursing their dreams. They are to be admired.

Do I respect people who work hard – Of course, I sometimes even think it might be something I should try :)

But how much harder does a CEO work than a A&E nurse, they are both human beings with the same 24hours in a day, does the CEO, as their pay differential would suggest, really work 165 times harder than the nurse? Does the current CEO really work so much harder than the previous CEO’s of his business to justify his growing pay differential to his workers?

And please remember most CEO’s are not entrepreneurs!

What I hate is a Tax system that is designed to be and encourages abuse and the people who use that tax system to avoid paying their due. The money required to support and improve the lives of everybody in this country. The money the majority of tax payers have no say in paying as it is taken directly from their wages.

Do I respect hard work, intelligence, perseverance and determination to succeed? Yes!

Do I respect greed, selfishness and the demonization of the poor? – No!

Do I hate the rich? No! I hate the system that allows and encourages morally reprehensible behaviour in some of the rich.
 

BobClay

Well-Known Forumite
I've always been of the opinion that the real wealth creators of a country are scientists, engineers, designers, technicians, inventors, maintainers and the like. People who design things, make things, fix them when they go wrong and monitor them when they go right. Not whiz kids sat in front of computer screens manipulating electronic confetti.
But since the 80's we've been guided into an economy built on services and finance to the cost that we now suffer serious skills shortages in just about everything outside this.
Sixth largest economy in the world ? A true house built on sand.
As for CEO's ... well they are good at driving their organizations into the ground then wandering off with millions pocketed and defunct pension funds in their wake. If you got performance related reports for that they'd be glowing bright.
 

Mikinton

Well-Known Forumite
But how much harder does a CEO work than a A&E nurse, they are both human beings with the same 24hours in a day, does the CEO, as their pay differential would suggest, really work 165 times harder than the nurse? Does the current CEO really work so much harder than the previous CEO’s of his business to justify his growing pay differential to his workers?
But it's not really about how hard you work, is it?

It's more about being able to do useful and necessary things that others can't. Does Raheem Sterling or Elton John work harder than an A&E nurse? Probably not. Do they deserve to be paid more? I'd argue that they do.
 

Mikinton

Well-Known Forumite
As for CEO's ... well they are good at driving their organizations into the ground then wandering off with millions pocketed and defunct pension funds in their wake. If you got performance related reports for that they'd be glowing bright.
You probably only pay attention to the ones that "drive their organisations into the ground" and ignore the thousands of CEOs that are steering their companies successfully, often through very difficult waters (like Brexit). Like referees in football matches, you know they're having a good game if you never notice them.
 

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
I find the concept that this is about electing a 'leader' to be quite odd.

We should be choosing a competent administration for the business of the state, not handing over public assets into the personal control of people who can define their own level of responsibility - and culpability.

"Leaders", like Thatcher and Blair should really make people query that stance.

And the thought that Johnson, or any of those of his colleagues who currently pretend to support and trust him, is a plausible leader is quite beyond me.
 

BobClay

Well-Known Forumite
You probably only pay attention to the ones that "drive their organisations into the ground" and ignore the thousands of CEOs that are steering their companies successfully, often through very difficult waters (like Brexit). Like referees in football matches, you know they're having a good game if you never notice them.

Oh they are very noticeable on the one of the biggest bandwagons in the world.

https://www.statista.com/statistics...ceos-and-average-workers-in-world-by-country/
 

staffordjas

Well-Known Forumite
I’ve voted Labour several times in my life but I won’t vote for Labour while Jeremy Corbyn is at the helm. Even people within his own party don’t think he’s fit to run the country.
I must admit (unlike hubby who spends hours following everything that's going on) I don't take much notice about politics, and haven't got the foggiest who's who. Only one I recognise at the moment is Boris because of his haircut...

BUT .... @Carole 's comment has just reminded me of watching something on telly last night , after many ciders, and seeing Jeremy Corbyn on there. (Just had to google him to make sure it's the same bloke....that's how much I know about politics ...) Took an instant dislike to him , asked hubby who he was , and that has helped make my mind up for voting day.
 

Mikinton

Well-Known Forumite
And they're off .... I've just had a Conservative party A4-size leaflet shoved through the letterbox.
 

Sk84goal

Well-Known Forumite
But it's not really about how hard you work, is it?

It's more about being able to do useful and necessary things that others can't. Does Raheem Sterling or Elton John work harder than an A&E nurse? Probably not. Do they deserve to be paid more? I'd argue that they do.

Thank you for admitting that, at least we can now dismiss the tory myth that the rich are richer because they work harder and therefore that the poor are poorer because they don’t.

As far as useful or necessary, I think that if I was to arrive at A&E with a serious health issue, although I appreciate the skills of both your examples, I would still prefer to be met by the nurse :)

I am not arguing that people should not be paid differently and that this should not be based on their skill and the scarcity of those skills, just that the scale of this difference has got completely out of hand and no longer represents their true value and worth. The market in executive pay is broken and has been for many years. I also have no problem with performance related bonuses as long as the whole of organisation receive them and the same amount is issued to all. Sensible salaries with modest multipliers and performance bonuses across the organisation. Everyone should benefit from success, nobody should benefit from failure.

The fact that this scale is further exasperated by their ability, if the choose, to avoid tax just make the situation even worse.
 

Mikinton

Well-Known Forumite
Thank you for admitting that, at least we can now dismiss the tory myth that the rich are richer because they work harder and therefore that the poor are poorer because they don’t.

As far as useful or necessary, I think that if I was to arrive at A&E with a serious health issue, although I appreciate the skills of both your examples, I would still prefer to be met by the nurse :)

I am not arguing that people should not be paid differently and that this should not be based on their skill and the scarcity of those skills, just that the scale of this difference has got completely out of hand and no longer represents their true value and worth. The market in executive pay is broken and has been for many years. I also have no problem with performance related bonuses as long as the whole of organisation receive them and the same amount is issued to all. Sensible salaries with modest multipliers and performance bonuses across the organisation. Everyone should benefit from success, nobody should benefit from failure.

The fact that this scale is further exasperated by their ability, if the choose, to avoid tax just make the situation even worse.
I think the main problem is not in what they are paid, as there are usually checks and balances in this, but in the risks they are allowed to take relative to the "punishment" for getting it wrong.

The whole credit crunch thing was caused by people taking risks with a huge upside but a relatively small downside. "So I lose my job. .... I'll get another one, and probably as well paid."

And here's a nice example of tax avoidance.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance...-how-it-works-and-how-you-can-use-it-too.html
 

proactive

Enjoying a drop of red.
Just to shatter @Tilly's illusions I will admit that I've only voted conservative on one occasion. That's precisely half of the number of times I have voted Labour. The second time I voted Labour they turned out to be a fcuking disaster. The time I voted Conservative also turned out to be a fcuking disaster.

Do I see anything about Boris or Corbyn that leads me to think they might in any way be competent in their management if the country? Do I heck as like. Boris will screw us out of Europe and then sell anything that's left to the yanks or to Mogg's hedge fund scum buddies, whilst shagging anything that moves and making them pregnant. Corbyn will do all he can to make this country as successful as modern day Venezuela, (who don't forget he admires), side with any terrorist going and take every opportunity to damage our interests in the name of his own particular brand of Socialism and probably still take us out of Europe as he won't actually tell anyone what he believes.

So this election, like most others I will vote for another party, who stand no chance of being elected and my vote will be wasted. But frankly I'm beyond caring now. Whoever gets in, Friday 13 December will make the film seem like a children's story and this country will be forever doomed.
 

Tilly

Well-Known Forumite
I rather like Labour's latest policy about "nationalising" broadband. Not sure about the practicalities, but assuming there's not too many devils in the detail, the strategy is sound.

Similarly with the rail network. I can never understand how a nationwide network can be broken up and still be expected to run efficiently.


Am I to understand the biggest shareholder in BT are the German Government? ( T-mobile ) And the second biggest shareholder the French Government?

An outrageous idea to have BT in UK state ownership, mad Stalinists!!


Off with his heed
 
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