Arriva Bus Fares Going Up 3rd Jan

[Mikinton]

I use the bus into town most days, to get to work. I get a 10 trip ticket which costs £15.00, though you can usually get at least 11 trips from it (don't ask); I think a single journey would cost me £1.80.

I find the morning trip very convenient; the bus is almost always on time, give or take, and the trip from half way around the estate takes about 18 minutes. The return trip is a bit of a lottery, though. The bus is almost always at least 5 minutes late, and frequently doesn't come at all so you end up getting the next one, meaning a wait of 40 to 45 minutes. The bus back is either very quick if you catch it before the rush hour, or very slow if you don't.

I spend the time on the bus with my head buried in a book. I'm not the quickest of readers, but manage to get through about 6 or 7 pages per trip. (Less if it's the quick bus home.) To me, this is where the bus wins hands down as I see time spent in the car as time wasted. True I could listen to the radio, but as I'm a Radio 5 listener, I've probably heard it already (I'm usually awake, with the radio on well before I get up), and I only listen to music from the comfort of my armchair.

Where the car comes into its own, is when I have to be somewhere after work. Then the extra cost (the petrol etc and the £4.10 parking) is balanced by the extra convenience of leaving work when I like and getting quicker to where I need to be. I suspect, if fares go up or THEY DO AWAY WITH THE 10 TRIP TICKET, I'll be in the car more often, especially this time of year. However, I may look at an annual ticket, which seems good value but means that there's no saving if I get a lift home. However I may need a bit of assurance about job security first before I part with any cash.

 

[Withnail]

I was offered weed on a bus in the 1990s, I can only imagine what I would be offered now.

A blue rinse?

 

[Withnail]

At all !

Says a presumably able-bodied person.
There is almost always a box to think outside of.

Don't quite know where you're going with the able bodied bit? My point was that at £1.80 each way on the bus for such short journeys the alternatives ALL are cheaper, car*, cycle**, taxi, walking***........doesn't matter****!

I didn't think i was being particularly oblique. The options you suggest may be cheaper, but available to all?

*Wasn't gone2seed disqualified from driving after his head injury?
**Is cycling an option for someone with a high risk of heart failure?
***Walking? With my chronic arthritis?
****Kind of does.

Of all the bullshit-management-speak phrases, 'thinking outside the box' is my favourite - though i still prefer Harper Lee's moccasins.

 

[henryscat]

The bus I would catch to get into town takes 30 minutes! I can cycle that in 10-15, wheel right into the centre and not have to sit with scum. I was offered weed on a bus in the 1990s, I can only imagine what I would be offered now.

You have a very warped view of your fellow passenger. I never have any problems on buses in Stafford with other passengers. When was the last time you caught a bus in Stafford?

 

[henryscat]

The return trip is a bit of a lottery, though. The bus is almost always at least 5 minutes late

My bus home earlier in the week lost at least 5 minutes just on Bridge Street thanks to a huge queue of cars, virtually all of them idiots who shouldn't even be driving down there to begin with.

I suspect, if fares go up or THEY DO AWAY WITH THE 10 TRIP TICKET, I'll be in the car more often, especially this time of year. However, I may look at an annual ticket, which seems good value but means that there's no saving if I get a lift home. However I may need a bit of assurance about job security first before I part with any cash.

10 trips are going but weekly and monthly tickets remain. Monthly tickets are a fiver cheaper if you buy online or on your mobile. They also do quarterly tickets online.

 

[phildo]

Nope that wasn't the point you made, you just said "at all" on the end of Gilesj's shortened quote "can't see the point of getting the bus". The "able bodied bit" that Withnail refers to, I'm guessing, is that you are fortunately able bodied enough to drive: not everyone is or will be their whole life.

Fair enough, I didn't really make a point by just adding "at all" to giles post, but what I was thinking when I added it was that the prices for buses are so high that I can't see anyone using them "at all"

Even at £2 a journey, the alternatives are not all cheaper. I could not get to town for £2 in a taxi. Also, people using the bus regularly are paying a lot less than £2 a journey.

A taxi into town is no more than £3-4 for most of Stafford, and that's per car not per person. If you plan your journeys with friends, family or neighbours then the taxi is cheaper than the bus. I accept that if you live on the outskirts, travel alone and frequently then the bus may be a tiny bit cheaper but probably not much in it.

Whether or not the car is cheaper is also debatable - for instance, you couldn't drive your car to town, park for a few hours, and drive back for cheaper than £4.

Yes, you can. Even if I factor in the lower mpg of such a short journey then the petrol will be no more than £1.50 return. (based on 3 miles each way at 24mpg at £6 gallon). Parking is free at Tesco or Asda for a few hours. And marginal wear and tear on oil, brakes, tyres is about 87p (this is based on my marginal cost of £14.5p per mile x 6 miles). So i reckon the marginal cost for a 3 mile return trip including parking is £2.37 ?

 

[phildo]

Indeed. Most drivers will one day have to dis-continue driving and need to rely on other means of getting around.

And taxis can be used.

Not everyone is in the position to be able to afford taxis everywhere.

But they can afford the bus ???

 

[phildo]

Says a presumably able-bodied person.
There is almost always a box to think outside of.

Don't quite know where you're going with the able bodied bit? My point was that at £1.80 each way on the bus for such short journeys the alternatives ALL are cheaper, car*, cycle**, taxi, walking***........doesn't matter****!

I didn't think i was being particularly oblique. The options you suggest may be cheaper, but available to all?

I agree, you're weren't being oblique. What was in my head didn't really translate into words in my posting. I was trying (miserably) to suggest that the bus is so expensive that there is always an alternative available... I appreciate that not all of the alternatives are suitable for all of the people but in most cases the bus is losing out to other methods of transport.

 

[henryscat]

And taxis can be used.

Not everyone is in the position to be able to afford taxis everywhere.

But they can afford the bus ???

If you are of state pension age for a woman, or have a qualifying disability then you get a free bus pass. Of course, being able to use it assumes that you can walk to the bus or in more remote areas actually have a bus.

 

[henryscat]

A taxi into town is no more than £3-4 for most of Stafford, and that's per car not per person. If you plan your journeys with friends, family or neighbours then the taxi is cheaper than the bus. I accept that if you live on the outskirts, travel alone and frequently then the bus may be a tiny bit cheaper but probably not much in it.

Travelling frequently the bus will be quite a bit cheaper. I don't have much experience of using taxis as I hate them and only use them if I absolutely have to, but... You have to book the taxi so it is subject to availability. I don't know what its like in Stafford, but at certain times of day availability is pretty limited either due to demand or because they're off doing contract work.

Yes, you can. Even if I factor in the lower mpg of such a short journey then the petrol will be no more than £1.50 return. (based on 3 miles each way at 24mpg at £6 gallon). Parking is free at Tesco or Asda for a few hours. And marginal wear and tear on oil, brakes, tyres is about 87p (this is based on my marginal cost of £14.5p per mile x 6 miles). So i reckon the marginal cost for a 3 mile return trip including parking is £2.37 ?

Yes, a great deal hinges on the parking, so I deliberately selected a longer duration.... Asda or Tesco will only tolerate 2 or 3 hours before they ticket? If you have to cough up for Pay and Display then it alters the figures.

 

[henryscat]

but in most cases the bus is losing out to other methods of transport.

It is losing out in some aspects, but bus operators are stuck between a rock and a hard place with rising costs, but at the same time successive governments have failed miserably to put necessary measures in place and put different modes of transport on a more level playing field. It ought to be blindingly obvious by now that deregulation has not worked.

All of that said, it still isn't all doom and gloom, and the local bus isn't a lost cause.

 

[phildo]

Yes, a great deal hinges on the parking, so I deliberately selected a longer duration.... Asda or Tesco will only tolerate 2 or 3 hours before they ticket? If you have to cough up for Pay and Display then it alters the figures.

Agreed, if you work in town and don't get free parking then the bus makes sense compared to driving. However, with a little planning and effort I'm sure that people could club together to arrange a taxi to come round each morning and pick each of them up and then reverse the journey in the evening dropping each person at home... thinking of a sort of taxi-share scheme !

 

[phildo]

It is losing out in some aspects, but bus operators are stuck between a rock and a hard place with rising costs, but at the same time successive governments have failed miserably to put necessary measures in place and put different modes of transport on a more level playing field.

Not sure that govt intervention is the answer, the issue is that oil is a finite resource so petrol prices are rising for everyone. Therefore the marginal costs of all methods of transport (except walking or cycling) are rising. The issue facing the buses is that people who have already made the significant up front investment of buying a car are unlikely to switch to the bus as the marginal differential is prohibitive.

 

[henryscat]

Not sure that govt intervention is the answer, the issue is that oil is a finite resource so petrol prices are rising for everyone. Therefore the marginal costs of all methods of transport (except walking or cycling) are rising. The issue facing the buses is that people who have already made the significant up front investment of buying a car are unlikely to switch to the bus as the marginal differential is prohibitive.

Yep, oil is more finite than politicians would like to acknowledge and their burying head in sand approach is going to make the effect of oil price rises worse. "Peak Oil" and oil supply is quite an interesting subject (if you like those sorts of subjects).

Increases in the price of fuel affect bus companies differently. The big groups like Arriva and First hedge their fuel price. Across their bus and rail businesses they buy a pretty huge amount. Problem comes when the hedge comes to an end, the have a big jump in the fuel bill. Combine this with the effect of the government cutting the amount of fuel duty rebate bus operators get by 20% with effect from April.

They have also suffered a drop in income for carrying concessionary passengers - see my other post - so are having to carry the same people for less money.

Government policy is important, because for one thing it directly impacts the marginal costs you refer to. The issue is though that the marginal cost to the driver of a car journey are nothing like the real cost of the journey (effects of congestion and other external costs) and consequently the transport "market" is artificially skewed.

A completely deregulated environment is not suited to running bus networks for maximum public benefit (why do you think Thatcher bottled out of deregulating London services...?). There are all sorts of reasons - but here's a couple... In London (regulated), everything is run under contract and consequently operators run at lower profit margins. On the road competition does not usually work to the public's benefit and the economics of a given route will rarely sustain more than one operator so wasteful competition results. If operator A runs a service every hour, and then operator B comes along to compete, is operator B going to slot his service in on the opposite half hour which would be best for passengers? Nope, it'll be 5 minutes ahead of the competition which commercially is perfectly sensible if you are operator B.... In terms of public service it is bonkers. There will then be a price war, one operator will back down then fares/frequency more often than not return to what they were before.

 

[gilesjuk]

I think there would be enough oil, but China and other developing countries are getting richer and as they do they stop walking, cycilng and using motorcycles. This means cars and more demand for steel and oil.

The problem is not so much how much oil there is but how much demand there is for it.

 

[henryscat]

I think there would be enough oil, but China and other developing countries are getting richer and as they do they stop walking, cycilng and using motorcycles. This means cars and more demand for steel and oil.

The developed western world still consumes the bulk of it though...

The problem is not so much how much oil there is but how much demand there is for it.

The amount of oil is very important... As more is pulled out of the ground, geological factors constrain the rate at which oil can be pumped out. So, whilst there may well be a lot of oil still in the ground, we have reached (or almost reached, depending on which source you take) the maximum rate of oil production which will go into decline from here on in.

 

[Withnail]

The problem is not so much how much oil there is but how much demand there is for it.

In the absence of Mr. Marwood, may i just point out how little sense that sentence makes - i'm quite sure he would have wanted it this way.

I don't wish to appear to be be kicking a man once he's down, and have no idea why people are taking against you in the way that they are, but even i know that how much there is of something has a rather crucial relationship with how much people want it.

'How much oil there is' is not so much a problem,but the problem.

If you get offered a hit of 'oil' on your next bus journey do let us know - i hear it's some good sh*t.

 

[henryscat]

If you get offered a hit of 'oil' on your next bus journey do let us know - i hear it's some good sh*t.

Batoyle Turbomaster 10W40 is pretty good stuff... but not encountered any on the bus lately.

 

[gilesjuk]

The problem is not so much how much oil there is but how much demand there is for it.

In the absence of Mr. Marwood, may i just point out how little sense that sentence makes - i'm quite sure he would have wanted it this way.

I don't wish to appear to be be kicking a man once he's down, and have no idea why people are taking against you in the way that they are, but even i know that how much there is of something has a rather crucial relationship with how much people want it.

'How much oil there is' is not so much a problem,but the problem.

If you get offered a hit of 'oil' on your next bus journey do let us know - i hear it's some good sh*t.

The point I was trying to make is that as countries like India and China become more like the West the demand for oil increases. If they weren't hell bent on driving cars then it probably wouldn't be such a problem.

We have to try to curb demand not increase supply. To increase supply we may have to destroy a lot more of the planet. Plus all the oil spills that will happen.

The planet can only produce a certain amount of oil, food and other resources.

 

[Withnail]

But as henryscat has so consistently pointed out, the amount of oil we can supply is already at its peak. There is no leverage, and car use isn't even the half of it - if you look at Agriculture alone, without oil our ability to produce, harvest and deliver food to the Market is utterly and entirely banjaxed. And that's just food.

Did i really just say 'just'?