B***tard Fox has had my chickens, Cute? I don't think so!

fatfrog

Well-Known Forumite
I am a lover of all animals (not in a physical sence you understand!) but foxes I struggle with. They kill for what seems to be the sake of it. Ripped the heads of all my chickens yet did not take one away to eat. What is the sence in it??!! If I caught that fox I would happily chop its tail off! Lets see how well it could balance on our fence then!
 

joshua

Well-Known Forumite
The observation that foxes can do tremendous damage to domestic livestock is one of the pivotal arguments for the continuation of hunting by the pro-hunting lobby. Unfortunately, there is no denying that foxes do kill livestock and sometimes do so to what appears to the casual human observer as “excess”. The counter-argument to “well foxes kill all the chickens in the coop but only take a couple” is normally something along the lines of “that’s because the fox was disturbed during the caching process. If you’d have slept through the ordeal, you would have come out to find your coup devoid of most of the hens”.  Unfortunately, there are no studies to support or refute this idea. The basis for this argument is that foxes can only carry a single bird at any one time (making the process of caching slow) and the livestock owner usually comes to investigate the disturbance before the fox has had time to remove and store more than one or two birds. Unfortunately, this is not necessarily accurate – there are many examples where foxes have killed two or three ducks, decapitating the birds, and have left the carcasses otherwise untouched. It is instances such as these that have perpetuated the belief that “foxes kill for sport”, or that they kill because they “enjoy” killing. Indeed, while following a fox hunting debate on an Internet discussion list recently, I read a post by a gentleman who considered that foxes only attacked our pets because they’re too small to attack us! (Photo: Very young foxes are well known to cache food, suggestions some genetic predisposition to do so.)
First let us deal with the idea that foxes get some pleasure out of killing, or kill for sport. For a predator, killing is a pivotal part of their existence; it's not an exercise-based leisure activity. Quite simply, to the exclusion of scavenging (which is highly unpredictable), if they don't kill something else they starve to death. At the same time, it seems reasonable to assume that an animal wouldn't perform a particular action (especially one as dangerous as chasing, capturing and killing another animal) if it disliked doing so. Consequently, in order to ensure that an action so crucial to their survival continues, predators have probably evolved to gain some enjoyment from hunting.  Think about reproduction - in order to ensure they're passed to successive generation, our genes programme us to be rewarded (with the 'hormone of love', oxytocin) for having sex. If sex wasn't fun, nobody would engage in it and the species would die out (test tubes and geneticists notwithstanding!).
So, do foxes enjoy killing? Yes, they probably do - they have evolved to kill to feed themselves and their families and a conscience or dislike of doing so would hamper their surival. However, does enjoying the hunt make them "wicked"? Quite simply, no. So far as anyone has been able to tell, predators are indifferent, even apathetic, to the lives or “feelings” of their prey, in the same way that their prey is indifferent to the lives and feelings of their predators! Predators just do what they do. The adjectives “malicious” and “evil” are often used when referring to the predatory behaviour of foxes (and indeed many predators). I think that Aidan Martin sums up this debate quite nicely on his ReefQuest site. Aidan writes:
Sharks lack a moral code, which is a necessary prerequisite for choosing to behave in a manner that could be called ‘evil’. Sharks simply do what they do without ill will or premeditation and thus cannot be labelled ‘malicious’.”
Although the above statement refers to sharks, it does well for foxes (or any other predator). In fact, the only animal to which it does not apply is a human! Humans have a moral code -- that is, a set of often-complex statements of right and wrong -- and, under most circumstances, an ethical code - predators do not. With this in mind, it seems rather unhelpful to judge predators by our own cultural values.
 

littleme

250,000th poster!
Sympathies Fatfrog. Our 2 cats do exactly the same thing for sport, all summer long I would come downstairs to headless birds, but its much worse when they are your chickens :( A fox once stuck its head through the catflap in the back door, it frightened the life out of me!
 

fatfrog

Well-Known Forumite
Well that was written very quickly Joshua! Please let me be upset for my chickens and myself for aleast 5 mins before hitting me with the essay above...do we the victims deserve no sympanthy at all, just a little, a tiny bit??
 

Alan B'Stard

Well-Known Forumite
My parents used to keep chickens and no matter how well they used to secure them, Mr Fox would get in every now and then and do his thing. It was quite upsetting for them as they named some of them and got quite attached. Eventually they gave up as it got them down too much.

It's not nice and I appreciate how upsetting it is.
 

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
It has always been my view that the wholesale killing may be for the purpose of keeping the noise down, and then there's only so much you can eat or carry away from the scene, so the remaining silenced birds are just left behind.
 

wmrcomputers

Stafford PC & laptop repair specialist
I agree with G on this one, although I also believe that foxes have the human condition of "eyes too big for their belly" and THINK they need more than they do.
It's a survival right of the fox I suppose, but I also agree about your upset fatfrog as I myself used to keep around 40 hens for eggs and also sold them for their adorable pet qualities.

It's a tough one, but had I caught one killing my hens I too would probably wish it harm - it's an instinct as much for us to protect our pets and family as it is for the fox to want to eat.
 

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
Are chavs a species?
No, that's a disease so deserves a cull. I'd prefer badgers!
Too late - interbreeding..

Chav_Badger.jpg
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
I challenge you to find a worse method of fox population control than organised weekend hunts. If we really wanted rid of them there are much easier methods.
 

AA Silencers

Well-Known Forumite
How about the selective breading and training of foxes until they hunt Chavs instead of chickens.

Maybe we could reintroduce specially trained wolves to help the foxes out.
 

My Name is URL

Well-Known Forumite
Was in the big smoke at the weekend and look out of the window in the middle of a residential street to see a fox walking (limping) down the road.... poor thing.

As above, the foxes are just being foxes.... pisses me off in this country that everyone just wants to go around killing everything that they don't agree with.... the badger cull to name but one example....
 

flossietoo

Well-Known Forumite
I've lost dozens of birds to foxes over the years. It's upsetting, especially when you've known the birds since they were an egg. It's illegal to bury on farmland, too, so I've spent macabre mornings excavating half-hidden birds and then making a sorry journey to the incinerator at Swan Pit. But I campaigned against fox hunting and I'll continue to campaign against the badger cull, too.
 

Hetairoi

Well-Known Forumite
The thought of a bunch of toffee nosed twits riding around killing a couple of mangy old foxes doesn't bother me one little bit!

This country has gone soft, too many townies who never have to confront the reality of what these foxes get up to.

Shame we no longer have Stafford Points as I bet I would lose quite a few over this!
 

flossietoo

Well-Known Forumite
I think that the reality of the bloody culmination of a hunt might be rather difficult to confront, too. Not least, for the fox.
 
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