Drug laws - Do Nice People Take Drugs?

[db]

Anybody who uses illegal 'recreational' drugs is of questionable character and integrity; not only are they regularly commiting crime, they are actively associating with criminals.

Ha hahaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! I see you crept in there at the last minute with most ridiculous comment of 2010.

Burn your music collection.

touché lol.. i was about to make some massive post about how jimbo must be of "questionable character and integrity" by his own definition because of the way the eggs he buys were farmed, or the chocolate he eats, or all the products he uses made with palm oil, or all the countless other things in his life that i dare say come from dubious manufacturing/employment sources, but yours is much better..

i wonder how many of his CD purchases have directly contributed to drug use? perfect

 

[Gramaisc]

i wonder how many of his CD purchases have directly contributed to drug use?

Didn't Amy Winehouse's father once ask people to stop buying her music, as she would only spend the proceeds on alcohol and/or other drugs...

 

[Jimbo]

I refuse to accept the accuracy of any data produced by that group particularly when any statisitcal information is grossly bias. You only have to read where survey information is gathered to see how flawed the interpretation of data will be;

Surveys have been distributed primarily at pop-festivals and pro-cannabis rallies....

For a proper survey you need a wide demographic, from a neutral setting, not a bunch of stonned hippies at a pro-cannabis rally, or some unwashed-students at V (and before you moan- I go to V and other festivals every year). There will be obvious bias.

Studies using data garnered from Home Office figures are likely to be very inaccurate pre- 90's. The Police didn't have to record as many offences, had much more discretion (i.e bag of weed down the drain) in dealing with offenders, and importantly, weren't actively encouraged to chase figures (1 burglary with no charge = no offences solves. 1 burglary but find someone with some cannabis = 50% of Offences 'solved'). You will also notice that from figures in your own survey that year on year both regular and daily use will have actually fallen year on year.

User rating of strength, as the survey states is crude, and so inaccurate. People become more accustomed to something the longer they are prolonged to it. I'm sure the first time you inhaled smoke or cannabis, it felt alot stronger than it does now. A heroin users first use of the drug will always feel stronger than any follow up.

I can produce surveys from internationally respected bodies that state Cannabis use in young people (the future of the country, and the target group that need educating most) falling. http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/stats09/gpsfig4b & http://www.suite101.com/content/marijuana-decreases-in-us-and-across-world-a95718 .

Your BBC article is very out of date, published long before industrial production of Cannabis in the UK became so prevelant. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/homegrown-cannabis-is-a-booming-business-439966.html Shows that 60% of the Cannabis used in the UK is homegrown. Indeed that is out of date too so it's probably more in the region pf 65%-70%. The serious and Organised Crime Agency also suggest the same 'There is evidence of widespread intensive commercial cultivation of the high potency cannabis ‘sinsimilla’ (or skunk) throughout the UK.'

Just because you didn't commit crime to buy Cannabis, does not mean others have not done the same. Your view is subjective whereas I am being objective- dealing with fact, rather than personal experience and opinion. I have dealt with people who commit offences to buy Cannabis as has Roger Davy, a West Yorkshire magistrate and a national spokesman on youth courts, who said: “Children — and that’s what they are — as young as 12, 13 and 14 are coming before us for offences of theft and robbery, which they admit are to raise money to feed their cannabis habit.”

You do realise, the very reason that Opium was legal in the 1800's was the very reason that you feel the Tories would benifit from legalising Cannabis.

Cannabis production really would not be that valuable a market for any Government, fertilisers are already produced, legally (how else to current criminal producers obtain it). If Cannabis was EVER legalised it would be an over the counter purchase, with advertisment, much like cigarettes, being illegal. You really wouldn't need that much space. Would pharmacies really be inundated, I know its the most common drug used in the world, but it really isn't THAT popular.

Town centres are actually likely to become more anti-social, and more violent on a weekend. People wouldn't just drink, or just smoke drugs, they would use both, a toxic mix likely to result in serious violence amongst many who are already too stupid to be trusted on a Friday night.

Not everything is addictive. I've worked for sometime now at a job I enjoy, it is by no means addictive and I enjoy my days off. Cannabis obviously has addictive qualities.

I really do not understand your defence of 'can't handle it, don't do it'. It is the drug that changes behaviour in both the short and long term. I'm sure when you are under the influence of Cannabis your judgement is less sound, you make less logical decisions and your reactions/spacial awareness/awareness of time passing are impaired. A person commits crime in order to fund a drug habbit through addiction, not choice.

 

[Jimbo]

There is a difference between association with a criminal and buying merchandise ( you really still buy CD's?!). Also last time I checked, I can quite legally walk into HMV and buy any CD I like. I don't have to text/call/meet a criminal.

As for any other goods mentioned; I don't go to my local drug dealer to buy them, I go to the supermarket, the local butcher, the local grocer, produce it myself or avoid it. Not that it matters but I only eat free-range, high-welfare meat, poultry and eggs.

Honestly, you try to have an informed debate with some people and it just becomes stupidity.

 

[toooldtorock]

I have the T-shirt!

 

[db]

Honestly, you try to have an informed debate with some people and they provide reasoned and compelling evidence in support of their argument, and cite sources that aren't the daily mail.. this country!

fixed

for the record, i hate hippies and i think dope-smokers are foul-smelling wasters, so please don't dismiss me as an "unwashed student at V" (not saying you would, just providing some background).. i agree with some of the points you are making, but disagree with your overall sentiment..

i think you and shoes are talking about different things on occasion, as well.. your comments about professional-level grow houses are 100% accurate and that's a very poor state of affairs that has a tremendous negative effect on all involved.. shoes was just making a point that someone growing a few trees in their cellar could get put away for more bird than violent criminals..

imo i agree with whoever is saying prohibition is a massive failure.. prohibition of anything is a massive failure..

 

[shoes]

I refuse to accept the accuracy of any data produced by that group particularly when any statisitcal information is grossly bias. You only have to read where survey information is gathered to see how flawed the interpretation of data will be;

Surveys have been distributed primarily at pop-festivals and pro-cannabis rallies....

For a proper survey you need a wide demographic, from a neutral setting, not a bunch of stonned hippies at a pro-cannabis rally, or some unwashed-students at V (and before you moan- I go to V and other festivals every year). There will be obvious bias.

Studies using data garnered from Home Office figures are likely to be very inaccurate pre- 90's. The Police didn't have to record as many offences, had much more discretion (i.e bag of weed down the drain) in dealing with offenders, and importantly, weren't actively encouraged to chase figures (1 burglary with no charge = no offences solves. 1 burglary but find someone with some cannabis = 50% of Offences 'solved'). You will also notice that from figures in your own survey that year on year both regular and daily use will have actually fallen year on year.

User rating of strength, as the survey states is crude, and so inaccurate. People become more accustomed to something the longer they are prolonged to it. I'm sure the first time you inhaled smoke or cannabis, it felt alot stronger than it does now. A heroin users first use of the drug will always feel stronger than any follow up.

I can produce surveys from internationally respected bodies that state Cannabis use in young people (the future of the country, and the target group that need educating most) falling. http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/stats09/gpsfig4b & http://www.suite101.com/content/marijuana-decreases-in-us-and-across-world-a95718 .

Your BBC article is very out of date, published long before industrial production of Cannabis in the UK became so prevelant. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/homegrown-cannabis-is-a-booming-business-439966.html Shows that 60% of the Cannabis used in the UK is homegrown. Indeed that is out of date too so it's probably more in the region pf 65%-70%. The serious and Organised Crime Agency also suggest the same 'There is evidence of widespread intensive commercial cultivation of the high potency cannabis ‘sinsimilla’ (or skunk) throughout the UK.'

Just because you didn't commit crime to buy Cannabis, does not mean others have not done the same. Your view is subjective whereas I am being objective- dealing with fact, rather than personal experience and opinion. I have dealt with people who commit offences to buy Cannabis as has Roger Davy, a West Yorkshire magistrate and a national spokesman on youth courts, who said: “Children — and that’s what they are — as young as 12, 13 and 14 are coming before us for offences of theft and robbery, which they admit are to raise money to feed their cannabis habit.”

You do realise, the very reason that Opium was legal in the 1800's was the very reason that you feel the Tories would benifit from legalising Cannabis.

Cannabis production really would not be that valuable a market for any Government, fertilisers are already produced, legally (how else to current criminal producers obtain it). If Cannabis was EVER legalised it would be an over the counter purchase, with advertisment, much like cigarettes, being illegal. You really wouldn't need that much space. Would pharmacies really be inundated, I know its the most common drug used in the world, but it really isn't THAT popular.

Town centres are actually likely to become more anti-social, and more violent on a weekend. People wouldn't just drink, or just smoke drugs, they would use both, a toxic mix likely to result in serious violence amongst many who are already too stupid to be trusted on a Friday night.

Not everything is addictive. I've worked for sometime now at a job I enjoy, it is by no means addictive and I enjoy my days off. Cannabis obviously has addictive qualities.

I really do not understand your defence of 'can't handle it, don't do it'. It is the drug that changes behaviour in both the short and long term. I'm sure when you are under the influence of Cannabis your judgement is less sound, you make less logical decisions and your reactions/spacial awareness/awareness of time passing are impaired. A person commits crime in order to fund a drug habbit through addiction, not choice.

The drivel of a non user is laughable. I'm sorry but you're simply incorrect about the popularity and use of cannabis being on the decrease. People might be more cagey about admitting to it but every generation there are more and more smokers. Believe me, pharmacies would be inundated. I live within the cannabis culture, you appear to only deal with those who have taken it too far.

The economic benefit would outstrip the cost many times over I'm sure, not that any anti's would want to acknowledge that.

As for the mix of alcohol and cannabis making your more violent..... I can only suggest you try this combination before commenting. I have yet to meet a smoker who thinks that smoking and drinking fires them up.

As for the defence of if you can't handle it then don't, I can't see the problem. Perhaps we should licence people to use drugs, so if you're mentally unstable or susceptible to addiction, or have any other underlying problems which could be exacerbated then you can't have any. If you are found to be irresponsible then heavy fines and bans are imposed. Much in the same way alcohol is dealt with.

As for the music, this is two fold. Firstly, almost all good music comes from drug users. Note the use of 'good music', so don't come back to me telling me that take that are clean as a whistle because I never said they weren't. Secondly these drug users spend the money from sales on.....drugs.

I agree with you that strength is almost impossible to gauge especially as everyone will react differently to it. Also I buy pot regularly and the strength of one batch can certainly not be linked to the next. If it's an average then I definitely go much better weed a decade ago when I was at school. This isn't just from the feeling of it, it's to do with the look, feel and smell of the product. I'm quite well read on cannabis and tend to know what I'm looking at. It does make me laugh when two dealers sell the same bud, one telling you it's 'AK47' and the other 'blueberry'. I don't think most of them know that blueberry is an actual real strain, incredibly rare and very very distinctive.

DB, at least some of your friends are smokers, I'm sure they'll be overjoyed that you think they're foul-smelling wasters. I shall pass that onto my great uncle too, I'm sure as a veteran he'll really appreciate your POV.

 

[basil]

Can you score me a £5 draw?......

 

[toooldtorock]

Shoes wrote:
As for the music, this is two fold. Firstly, almost all good music comes from drug users. Note the use of 'good music', so don't come back to me telling me that take that are clean as a whistle because I never said they weren't. Secondly these drug users spend the money from sales on.....drugs.
F**k me I nearly agree with Shoes. The enhancment is great for the creativity but leaves you unable to recreate the great music again. Over the years live performance high expectations have been shattered by shambolic performances from stoned/high artists which are embarrasing for all concerned. Nowadays I'm quite happy with a pint or two beforehand and copious amounts afterwards, but thats just me.

 

[db]

DB, at least some of your friends are smokers, I'm sure they'll be overjoyed that you think they're foul-smelling wasters. I shall pass that onto my great uncle too, I'm sure as a veteran he'll really appreciate your POV.

some?? most..

this might come as a shock to you, but the friends that you refer to, my friends, are well known to me.. indeed, that is why they are called friends.. i have known many of them for more than 25 years.. you think the fact that we have differing opinions on subjects on certain things stands in the way of our friendship?? jesus, no wonder you struggle to find support on here lol..

bear in mind i've been in support of many of your views in this thread, don't take one thing i say and suddenly skew your whole opinion based on that.. you'll sound like a daily mail reader

The drivel of a non user is laughable.

as is the drivel of a user.. he is biased in exactly the same way as you are.. as i mentioned earlier in the thread, you suffer from a condition that many drug users (myself included, in the past) do - you think that anything you have tried is fine, and anything else is the devil and will lead to you sucking off men in toilets just to get your next fix..

drugs are drugs.. they all have an effect on body chemistry, some more pronounced than others.. i agree with the point you make that it is down to how the individual reacts that is the key point, and it is that that has to be somehow addressed..

alas, i don't know how one might address that.. decriminalisation is one way, and an idea i have come round to more and more in recent years.. is it the right answer? i definitely don't know.. i dare say no-one does.. it would be a fantastically interesting experiment, though..

I'm sorry but you're simply incorrect about the popularity and use of cannabis being on the decrease. People might be more cagey about admitting to it but every generation there are more and more smokers. Believe me, pharmacies would be inundated. I live within the cannabis culture, you appear to only deal with those who have taken it too far.

you only think this because you, by your own admission, live within the "cannabis culture".. i remember when i was part of this culture, when i was your age, and i thought everyone was at it.. as in, almost literally everyone.. drug use is rife, there is no denying it, but i believe the official stat's are reasonably accurate.. for some reason, drug users are quite willing to admit to their usage, as you and i have demonstrated here, so i don't think there are any "hidden stat's"..

i don't think you know me well enough IRL to know how au fait i am with drug users, but by all means speak to me in the pub next time we cross paths (sans ms. db) or ask any of my aforementioned friends and they will tell you i am well versed in the subject.. this is not any kind of bragging - as per my reply to jimbo, i am just providing some background info. so you don't dismiss me as someone who lives a totally different life to you..

As for the mix of alcohol and cannabis making your more violent..... I can only suggest you try this combination before commenting. I have yet to meet a smoker who thinks that smoking and drinking fires them up.

so just because your mates don't react in that way, that means it doesn't happen?

i don't know anyone who would murder anyone, under any circumstance.. does that mean murderers don't exist?

i have seen people who go mental on pills/mdma.. i still, to this day, can't fathom it.. if there is one drug that inspires the complete antithesis of violence, it's mdma, yet as i say i have witnessed with my own eyes, on more than one occasion, blokes who love to neck a few pills and get into a fight..

likewise, booze makes people aggro.. skunk on top of this just loosens inhibitions.. i agree with you, for the most part - stoners are the most docile people in world, and god knows i'd rather be in a room full of stoners than a room full of blokes tanked up on stella.. that doesn't mean that that is the only way people react..

 

[Withnail]

Cannabis is grown, cultivated and sold on a Commercial scale, by not very nice people. I know this to be true because of the work I do. They are involved in serious crime at a high level.

Remember, your dealer will be supplied by another dealer and so on. The higher the ladder you climb, the more harm that person creates.

As far as i’m concerned this is precisely the most compelling reason for legalisation. You only have to look at the madness going on in Mexico to see how much of a problem the criminalisation of drugs is causing. Make it a legitimate business and people could ditch the gun and take up the calculator – out with the war on drugs and in with the war on price.

I don't need to be shocked by how many people use 'recreational' drugs, I have a good idea. I also get to visit them in their homes when the drugs finally rot their brain

How many homes of users without rotted brains do you get to see? There is an obvious health issue with drug use, but it is just that, a health issue not one of law ‘n’ order.

There is a slight logical inconsistency in your arguments so far, ie;

more people would be encouraged to use

and

Cannabis production really would not be that valuable a market for any Government

If it was a ‘product’, taxed and regulated, you would have either not both. I tend to agree that it wouldn’t be a ‘massive’ market but it could potentially generate significant revenue at the same time as freeing up public money that would otherwise be spent on law reinforcement. Or as our simian technologist wold say

Legalise it, tax the **** out of it but still keep the same penalties as they have now if you're caught cultivating / trading in it. The government would make billions a year, the police would have a lot more free time to catch actual criminals, and the potheads would be happier cos they can buy from Esso rather than a dealer. This will also cut contact with other drugs, and help reduce crime in other areas

That money could be better used in education and health spending on the casualties that ensue as they already do and will continue to do so whether we legalise or not.

Ultimately, whether it would be a better policy can only be speculation but

imo i agree with whoever is saying prohibition is a massive failure..

decriminalisation is one way, and an idea i have come round to more and more in recent years.. is it the right answer? i definitely don't know.. i dare say no-one does.. it would be a fantastically interesting experiment, though..

 

[shoes]

Yeah, fair enough. I don't disagree with anything you've said.

Apologies for the daily mailness lol

when i was your age

Sorry dad

 

[db]

Yeah, fair enough. I don't disagree with anything you've said.

Apologies for the daily mailness lol

no apologies necessary, i know it's the sort of subject one can easily can get lost in one's own experiences.. thanks, though.. it takes balls to apologise in the midst of a such a heated debate on the internet when someone calls you out.. god knows we've enough of that round here recently

it's worth pointing out that just because you're wrong, doesn't mean i'm right.. if any of us had a solution to how to handle drugs, we wouldn't be sitting here at midnight, sipping scotch, and posting drivel on the an internet forum lol..

i dare say you and i see the "nice" side of drug use, but from the sounds of things jimbo sees the evil side, day-in day-out.. that sort of thing is clearly going to have an impact on a person (in a similar way to how you see people going to such great lengths to help charities/etc. when their lives are touched by cancer or some other loss)..

when i was your age

Sorry dad

god, i thought something similar when i wrote that and almost left it out.. then i thought "no, you're that age now, just farking accept it" lol..

so, anyone want any sage advice on how life was better in my day, or how we had it bad in the war?

 

[Withnail]

Anybody who uses illegal 'recreational' drugs is of questionable character and integrity; not only are they regularly commiting crime, they are actively associating with criminals.

Ha hahaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! I see you crept in there at the last minute with most ridiculous comment of 2010.

Burn your music collection.

I can quite legally walk into HMV and buy any CD I like. I don't have to text/call/meet a criminal.

Honestly, you try to have an informed debate with some people and it just becomes stupidity.

It is a fair point that shoes is making – by your own parameters of guilt by association with a ‘chain’, your legitimate purchase is just one link lower down.

 

[Withnail]

sitting here at midnight, sipping scotch, and posting drivel on an internet forum lol..

Out of vodka and vermouth so soon?

 

[db]

sitting here at midnight, sipping scotch, and posting drivel on an internet forum lol..

Out of vodka and vermouth so soon?

An excellent question. And one which will be hanging on the lips of the world quite soon. If I were to break the news to anyone, it would be to you first, Mr Bond - you know that.

 

[tek-monkey]

Has anyone here read Scar Tissue? Its the autobiography of Anthony Kiedis, singer from the RHCP. Essentially after every album he took all his money and dissapeared for a bit, to blow it all on heroin. If you own any of their early stuff, at least the first 5 albums, you directly contributed to his heroin use. This in turn funded his dealer, and so on. He is not an isolated incident.

 

[tek-monkey]

Just to add I can see both sides of this, and can understand where Jimbo is coming from, but his experiences are only at the one extreme end of the spectrum. Its like an A&E nurse thats never been in a pub giving advice on drinking, when chances are they've only ever seen the casualties of a night out. If people are allowed to drink and smoke they should be allowed to smoke weed too, just penalise the ****heads like we do with booze. Strange that fags kill many more people yet the only penalty you get is having to go outside to do it, but I suppose the tax revenue from that disperses any possible questions.

 

[Withnail]

But as Jimbo pointed out earlier, cigarettes and alcohol kill more because they are more freely available - the comparative rates of death per user for each drug would be interesting to see.

Legalisation could turn out to be a big fat fail, but i personally think it is worth trying.

 

[tek-monkey]

Has anyone ever died through smoking weed? Other than driving into a tree, or walking under a bus etc.

What good does giving someone a criminal record for smoking weed actually do? Surely it just ensures they have less avenues for progression in life, therefore keeping them in the kind of environment that promotes smoking weed in the first place?