Withnail
Well-Known Forumite
A chicken values its life? How can you be sure of this?
I'm not sure that a fear for the loss of life actually equates to a value for it. One is instinctual, the other is not so. Unless you know otherwise?
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The moral argument of eating meat & dairy
- Thread starter Mikinton
- Start date
I'm not sure that a fear for the loss of life actually equates to a value for it. One is instinctual, the other is not so. Unless you know otherwise?
clara jayne
A few posts under my belt
It's pretty obvious you don't give a shit if you can still eat meat without feeling the slightest bit of guilt.you assume that people give a shit
i know i'm eating mechanically separated meat product, i know how it is produced, etc.. i know i'm eating eyelids and scrotum and god knows what else, but it's damn tasty when it's put through the mill (quide liderally) and made presentable.. stop trying to drag an informative yet light-hearted thread down! as the previous poster says:
Head in the sand springs to mind. Ignorance is bliss right?
clara jayne
A few posts under my belt
Sadly this is the type of people we have to deal with on a daily basis when it comes to ignorance around vegetarians and the slaughter of animals.
clara jayne
A few posts under my belt
Everyone is trying to survive survival was a big part of this world even for humans many years ago. We've done too well. We don't have to worry about dying anymore from something unexpected. Animals however still have that urge to survive. That's why they run away when you try to catch a chicken. They fear they might be killed or harmed. That makes it obvious they value their life.
If they didn't care they wouldn't run and would just let you catch them.
clara jayne
A few posts under my belt
you've tried this one on me before and it just doesn't make any sense..
i can't build a bridge - does that mean i shouldn't use them?
i can't harvest & prepare tea - does that mean i shouldn't drink it?
etc.
i'm sure you will come back with some tenuous retort that no-one will agree with, but even if you manage to, it will be irrelevant - the point is, thanks to evolution, industrialisation, etc. we don't have to do that stuff.. someone out there farms, slaughters, and prepares the meat for us, so we don't have to.. i don't care about how it has ended up on my plate, really..
i'm sure you will argue that that is because i am a selfish, hideous example of a human being (you may even put "human" in quotation marks, for added facetiousness), but if that were the case and i was in the minority, we wouldn't have the enormous meat industry that we have these days and you wouldn't be making pointless arguments that no-one agrees with lol..
thanks to the internet and other modern media, we are all pretty well informed about how the manufacturing industry works.. we know our meat is mechanically separated, blasted from the bone with jets of water and mushed up.. we've seen the animals having a less than fun time of it.. but, as mikinton says:
If you can't do it then it shows you have some form of guilt. If you have guilt then you know you're doing something wrong. If you're doing something wrong then why are you continuing to do it?
Trumpet
Well-Known Forumite
A large, thick, juicy, tender, tasty T bone steak is bliss in my book.
Have been known to plan week-ends around the quality of steaks on offer.
Mikinton
Well-Known Forumite
It certainly isn't guilt judging by the amount of meat we put away. Squeemishness more like.
If I'd been around 100 years ago and lived on a farm, I dare say I wouldn't have batted an eyelid at wringing a chicken's neck. It depends on your upbringing, and I've been brought up in a society where 'wringing a chicken's neck' (and all the preparation) is done for you. So I guess I'm a little out of practice, but dare say I could overcome the sqeemishness if I had to.
henryscat
Well-Known Forumite
Sentience is all that is necessary and I'm sure that you accept all animals eaten by people are sentient.
Mikinton
Well-Known Forumite
What about mealworms? Are they sentient? Hardly a month goes by without some piece on the telly telling us that they're the future (like garlic bread).
tek-monkey
wanna see my snake?
I'm pretty sure insects are sentient? We talk about the 'hive mind' but insects make decisions, they also run when startled. I should know, I've seen enough of them trying to hide from my geckos when I kept them!
Trumpet
Well-Known Forumite
We used to kill chickens at school in rural studies. Think the teacher used to take them home. Certainly never had enough to feed the school.
Withnail
Well-Known Forumite
Speak for yourself - i've just hurt my knee.
I do. I'm sure that you accept it's not quite the same as 'valuing' life though.
Glam
Mad Cat Woman
We are ALL entitled to our own opinion. I used to live smack bang between two farms. I grew up on them. Seen pigs and chickens slaughtered, and then at some point eaten the same animals. Guilt? None at all.
With chips and mushrooms? What do you like as accompianent?
Trumpet
Well-Known Forumite
A nice bottle of red.
henryscat
Well-Known Forumite
proactive
Enjoying a drop of red.
So you are against the keeping of animals as pets then HC? Do you not own cats? Did you not recently post some information on the size of hutch suitable for two rabbits?
In your eyes, am I wrong because I have a dog?
Mikinton
Well-Known Forumite
It depends if you treat it as your property. If you treat it as a member of the family (provide food and shelter and pay its vets bills), then I reckon you're in the clear.
henryscat
Well-Known Forumite
Gary Francione's website goes into the issue of companion animals. Abolitionists believe that animals should not be domesticated and bred for human purpose, and that extends to companion animals. However, it is also recognised that there are a large population of animals in rescues that do not have a home and that we have a moral duty to those animals in existence. Therefore, adopting/fostering an animal is compatible with abolitionist belief, but buying one from a breeder is not. Yes I do have companion animals, but they are all adopted having previously been homeless.
Withnail
Well-Known Forumite
"As long as there is someone there who is subjectively aware and who, in that being’s own way, cares about what happens to him or to her, that is all that is necessary to have the moral right not to be used as a resource."
If the physical size differential between you and a chicken were swapped -
- this sort of thing for example, the differential in brain size would not. Sentient it would be, considerate of 'values' it would not.
I have no doubt that such a chicken would have no moral qualms about using you as a resource.
henryscat
Well-Known Forumite
I fail to understand the point. There are many animals in the wild today that could obliterate a human quite easily. That doesn't justify killing them for pleasure - i.e. to eat, wear, or for the pleasure of hunting. Nor does it justify people eating any other animal. You can't refer to a chicken having moral qualms when a chicken does not possess moral capacity.