The Sustainablility Thread

Doctor

Well-Known Forumite
Admin edit: This post has been moved from a different thread, so is out of chronological order! We actually have jchiltz to thank for starting this thread - please read his post, underneath, first. :)



Cutting congestion does not have one single answer but cutting car use is part of it. To do that requires lots of changes too. If you watch people coming out of the supermarkets and getting into their cars there is a vast majority who haven't just done a monthly shop for a family. They are mainly one or two shopping bags. People have stopped doing a single main shop and topping it up with local purchases - they just go and buy a few things for the next few days frequently in their cars. This is partly because we don't think about our car use enough and partly because local shops have disappeared or are/ perceived to be more expensive.

Work travel has also changed. People used to move closer to their work but now moving house is much more expensive and there are often 2 jobs to think about. Work places have also moved away from residential areas (or vice versa) so it's increasingly hard to live close to work. We have very little town/ city centre housing - unlike the rest of the continent (although I hate using continental examples).

These trends need to change. We need to be moving towards a situation where we can shop and work more locally to our living places. We need to build communities again where we have no need to travel just to enjoy a bit of green space or drive to get a loaf of bread (where's your closest bakery?) or take hours out of our leisure time to get to work. A community where going to the local pub means meeting up with people you know, friends and meeting people from different generations and social classes who you'll see down the shops or over the garden fence. It might sound like a dream but it's a good dream and isn't it closer to what we all want than how we are living now: isolated in our cars, scared to go out at night (although crime is at its lowest level), confined to a disparate group of friends meeting up in a characterless town centre drinking chain too far from home to stagger, remote from nature's glories and mysteries, drained of thought by the invisible chains binding us to the TV. Isn't this what Stafford Forum is all about - finding a new way of pulling together a community in Stafford again - all us lost souls at our keyboards wanting to know about local things, get to know local people, do local things? :stafford:

Sorry - gone off on one again havn't I.
 

Astro Boy

Pocket Rocket
Right then, seeing as the 'Planning and Traffic in Stafford ...... Terrible?' thread got a little off track, here's a fresh one about the environment so we can sprout about frustrations and discuss ideas on the best way to combat / live with / prepare for the turbulent future ahead of us...............
 

Astro Boy

Pocket Rocket
Ill go first,

Fantasy World?! You've got to be kidding right?! It's these aspirations that are going to drag our species out of the shit we've put ourselves in.
 

db

#chaplife
jchiltz said:
Ill go first,

Fantasy World?! You've got to be kidding right?! It's these aspirations that are going to drag our species out of the shit we've put ourselves in.
good work creating a new thread, but you could at least edit your posts to include some quotes from the previous thread so it makes sense!
 

db

#chaplife
Doctor said:
If you watch people coming out of the supermarkets and getting into their cars there is a vast majority who haven't just done a monthly shop for a family. They are mainly one or two shopping bags. People have stopped doing a single main shop and topping it up with local purchases - they just go and buy a few things for the next few days frequently in their cars.
sorry, but as someone who goes to the supermarket (either asda or tesco, depending on how i feel) every saturday i can categorically state that you are wrong on this point.. almost everyone there comes out with trolleys full of shopping - no-one comes out with "one or two shopping bags".. and this isn't their "monthly" shop (as you say, no-one does monthly shops).. this is a weekly shop - mine is for two people (me & the missus) and averages around 7 bags.. my sister has to shop for a family of 5 and her weekly shop runs into the hundreds of pounds!

Doctor said:
These trends need to change. We need to be moving towards a situation where we can shop and work more locally to our living places. We need to build communities again where we have no need to travel just to enjoy a bit of green space or drive to get a loaf of bread (where's your closest bakery?) or take hours out of our leisure time to get to work. A community where going to the local pub means meeting up with people you know, friends and meeting people from different generations and social classes who you'll see down the shops or over the garden fence.
i think my posts are being misunderstood.. i completely agree with you on all points here.. i would love to live in the kind of society that you describe, as i'm sure most people would.. however, i was pointing out that:
Doctor said:
It might sound like a dream but it's a good dream
as i say, if you honestly think that people are going to give up their own personal convenience to serve the greater good, you are living in a fantasy (or "dream") world.. people these days are selfish, there is no way they would give up their cars and inconvenience themselves just so that the world might be a better place once they are dead and buried..
 

Astro Boy

Pocket Rocket
dirtybobby said:
you could at least edit your posts to include some quotes from the previous thread so it makes sense!
frequent users are the only people who generally contribute to serious debate, so therefore i presumed that the current topics are all familiar and credited my fellow forumites with a modicum of intelligence and recall :teef:

dirtybobby said:
Sofa said:
dirtybobby said:
...you're living in a fantasy world..
I fear it is you who's grip on reality may be the lesser, Mr Bobby! You seem to be ignoring, or ignorant of, the simple facts of peak oil and climate change. Have you noticed what has been happening to fuel prices recently?
you obviously missed the bit where i said doc's points were good ones.. i agree that all these things are problems, and they aren't going away.. however, if you honestly believe for a minute that your average (wo)man in street cares more about the bigger picture than they do about their own immediate personal circumstance, then you're living on the same cloud as the doc!

declaring that everyone "should work closer to home" is the stuff of fantasy.. no-one wants to work 30 miles from home, but for many of us it's the only option..

FooFighter said:
And do you walk, cycle or drive the 1 1/2 miles?
drive, obviously.. and i drive home at lunch, and drive to the gym and back after work.. so that's 6 times i drive that journey every day - take that! :teef:

anyway, stop taking this thread off topic, hippies! it's about suggestions for traffic planning dagnammit!
******************************************************

dirtybobby said:
people these days are selfish, there is no way they would give up their cars and inconvenience themselves just so that the world might be a better place once they are dead and buried..
unfortunately you are spot on here. its an extremely sad state of affairs. this is exactly why we need a revolution of the mind as well as current society / infrastructure. :militant:

mate, i hear you. your lighthearted debating skills are insightful, intelligent as well as entertaining but a subject so serious and close to everyones heart is going to stir passion. the things you are pointing out are the frustrating aspects of modern life that we seem to be unable to evoke change. i know you can see them too and are as equally frustrated, you are bringing a sense of reality to the debate.

together we can make a solid plan.

changes are going to take time. but i dont think thats a luxury we can afford............
 

db

#chaplife
jchiltz said:
together we can make a solid plan.
captain_planet.jpg


bagsy being fire.. i'm not being heart - he's well gay :teef:
 

Doctor

Well-Known Forumite
Admin,
Glad to have stimulated a debat - if my name is going on the thread could it be the sustainability thread please. If we keep lumping some of this stuff into hippy green issues it will always just get dismissed - I'm talking about looking at our economic development so that it enhances our society and dosn't threaten the environment we share.
 

Astro Boy

Pocket Rocket
(Admin - WTF?!) Yeah, 'The Sustainability Thread' does have better connotations and is more along the lines of what I intended when starting The Environment Thread.
 

Doctor

Well-Known Forumite
dirtybobby said:
sorry, but as someone who goes to the supermarket (either asda or tesco, depending on how i feel) every saturday i can categorically state that you are wrong on this point.. almost everyone there comes out with trolleys full of shopping - no-one comes out with "one or two shopping bags
I'm sure many people do there larger shops on Saturdays, however there are another 6 days in the week. I've stood outside supermarkets for whole days doing campaigning (getting people to take leaflets, sign things etc) and there are a lot of small 'shops'. However we all then go and throw about half of it away, acording to the recycling group WRAP, and then if you minimise the packaging how much would you be left with? What if we got people cooking again rather than watching cookery programmes while they ate there pre packaged, nutriant defficient, calory rich, high fat ready meals.

Unfortunatly every one does seem to be selfish and lazy but how much are we being led into it by the supermarkets themselves? It's much more proffitable for them to funnel us to one central shop, reduce our choice of retailers and have us search for the thing we want that they have moved so we can see lots of other things they want us to buy. Hopefully discussions like this, forums like this may wake a few people up and we start to say "hey remember when a tomato tasted like a tomato" or "actually I want my apples form the UK not from New Zealand and I'll only have strawberries in the summer".

The thing is - as Dirtybobby has said - most of us probably agree that we want a more sustainable world but feel fairly helpless to change it. Well, it's now or never folks! It's no-longer about saving the planet for our kids it's about saving our society for us - right now, right here, today. If we don't start to do something as the children of the industrial revolution then how do we expect the rest of the world to do anything - why should they after all we ballsed it up for them first.
 

Admin

You there; behave!
Staff member
Doctor said:
Admin,
Glad to have stimulated a debat - if my name is going on the thread could it be the sustainability thread please.
I'm not sure what you mean, especially by "If my name is going on the thread"! Would you rather I moved your post at the top of this thread to a different thread? If so, let me know which one (although this new one does seem appropriate to me). I've searched for "sustainability" and can't find anything.

Doctor said:
If we keep lumping some of this stuff into hippy green issues it will always just get dismissed - I'm talking about looking at our economic development so that it enhances our society and dosn't threaten the environment we share.
Again, I'm not sure what you mean. Surely the sort of people who would classify something as a "hippy green issue" would consider everything in this thread as such, along with any discussion about the environment/traffic/etc?

jchiltz said:
(Admin - WTF?!)
Sorry? Have I done something to offend? :/

You lot are confusing me today! ;)
 

Astro Boy

Pocket Rocket
Admin said:
jchiltz said:
(Admin - WTF?!)Yeah, 'The Sustainability Thread' does have better connotations and is more along the lines of what I intended when starting The Environment Thread.
Sorry? Have I done something to offend? :/
The author of this thread has changed from myself to doctor. :raise:
 

Admin

You there; behave!
Staff member
jchiltz said:
Admin said:
jchiltz said:
(Admin - WTF?!)Yeah, 'The Sustainability Thread' does have better connotations and is more along the lines of what I intended when starting The Environment Thread.
Sorry? Have I done something to offend? :/
The author of this thread has changed from myself to doctor. :raise:
Ah - that was because I moved one of Doctor's posts from the traffic thread to this one, as I wanted to avoid derailing that thread any further! Unfortunately, because his post was actually made before you started this thread, his comes first chronologically, and thus he has usurped ownership! Well, at least as far as the MySQL database is concerned.

Now you say that, I think I understand the good Doctor's "if my name is going on the thread" request!

Just to clarify - what does everyone want me to change the title of this thread to?
 

Astro Boy

Pocket Rocket
aaah! well, in the interest of putting this to bed and getting on with it my vote goes for 'The Sustainability Thread'

:P
 

Sowsider

A few posts under my belt
Doctor said:
Isn't this what Stafford Forum is all about - finding a new way of pulling together a community in Stafford again
I don't know whether this thread should be in general chat or Stafford chat. Doctor is relating all his posts to Stafford, and making practical and local suggestions, but the issues are really important and of global significance. The challenge is to turn the reality of increasing fuel prices, which will affect us all whether we like it or not, into something good.

Stafford is setting up as a transition town. See http://transitiontownstafford.org.uk/TTS/index.html
and http://transitiontowns.org/Main/HomePage

You'll be hearing more about this!
 

RoadRunner

Active Member
Regarding the earlier posts: Dreams are good, and if we have enough vision we could make it happen...

Sowsider said:
Doctor said:
Isn't this what Stafford Forum is all about - finding a new way of pulling together a community in Stafford again
I don't know whether this thread should be in general chat or Stafford chat. Doctor is relating all his posts to Stafford, and making practical and local suggestions, but the issues are really important and of global significance. The challenge is to turn the reality of increasing fuel prices, which will affect us all whether we like it or not, into something good.

Stafford is setting up as a transition town. See http://transitiontownstafford.org.uk/TTS/index.html
and http://transitiontowns.org/Main/HomePage

You'll be hearing more about this!
Indeed ... we might be number 76: Transition Communities
(Leek (#74) became official on 21st June 2008, and Buxton are about to apply, so things are moving quickly).

I vote for this being The Sustainability Thread and in Stafford Chat.
 

Astro Boy

Pocket Rocket
Stafford chat? Not sure. Sustainablility is a global issue. Yes, there are local considerations, but we must also understand how our choices impact on the rest of the world.

Take food for example: There are simply too many people in this country for us to be self sufficient. Eating seasonally will improve the situation slightly but its inevitable that an amount of our food is, and will continue to be, imported. How that food is imported is what will make the difference between it being sustainable or not. Eg: Dont go further than the mediterranean for certain fruit. Dont go further than western europe for meat.

:perhaps:
 

Doctor

Well-Known Forumite
The thing about sustainability is that it seems a simple idea but can be intricatly complex in it's application. It is impossile to use a broad brush and say 'only food from this distance away is sustainable'. For instance we use far more fertalisers etc here than other parts of the world and produce more emissions per Kg so is it more sustianble to transport food or buy locally? Buying locally may support an agricultural areas way of life (so support Farmers' Markets), but buying from abroad may mean life itself for others (so support Fairtrade). Most of the time these don't come into too much conflict as it's hard to buy Staffordshire grown coffee or bananas whilst Fairtrade cauliflowers and pork pies are simillarly rare. Sometimes, however, you just have to make a choice with as many facts to hand and scrutinising your 'moral compass'. Do you buy a local apple juice or a Fairtrade apple juice. To make it harder places like New Zealand claim that the total carbon footprint (including transport) of their lamb is less than, say, welsh lamb due to the intensive nature of our system compared to theirs. So which do you buy? Of course being vegetarian is far more sustainable as it takes about 10 times as much energy to produce meat as grain/ veg etc. It also uses up increasingly valuable food resources such as maize, grain and soya - taking them from poorer economies so the richer can feast. But this is still all simplified as it dosn't get into how some farming methods are more detramental to soil structures, water resources or use unregulated poisons, how some agriculture destroys forests or encourages desrtification whilst others produce massive biodiversity losses through monocropping, how seemingly positive ideas (bio fuels) are subsidised into unsustainable jokes at the tax payers expense and loads of other stuff.

So you have to look at each choice you make, try and get the facts and issues around it and try your best. Every purchase, every choice is a chance to be more sustainble. Some you'll get right, some you'll get wrong, some could be either - the main thing is that once you start thinging about it you'll start to make a difference. You'll make more and more right choices. Maybe you strat with food but after a while you'll be looking into solar panels and going to Green Drinks meetings, volunteering for the Wildlife Trust and cycling everywhere!
 
Top