To frack or not ?

[John Marwood]

Oh come on...

 

[proactive]

Haven't yet finished reading Withnail's link to the 292 page fracking report so will not comment on that yet but...

Surely the best way for us all to have cheap and green energy is to build a shit-load of nuclear power stations? Problem solved, providing they are constructed with safety in mind.

 

[John Marwood]

Haven't yet finished reading Withnail's link to the 292 page fracking report so will not comment on that yet but...

Surely the best way for us all to have cheap and green energy is to build a shit-load of nuclear power stations? Problem solved, providing they are constructed with safety in mind.

And as a nps is built for profit and the government commissioning it is made up of eejits how do you really expect, earthquakes from fracking aside, to construct one safely..

Stop the world eating pork, build houses from straw, eat less

 

[Gramaisc]

Surely the best way for us all to have cheap and green energy is to build a shit-load of nuclear power stations? Problem solved, providing they are constructed with safety in mind.

The Japanese are fairly keen on nuclear safety and currently have half a million tons of radioactive water stacking up at Fukushima - and now beginning to enter the ground water...

If we just used a bit less energy, it might help. is it necessary to light the whole of Sainsbury's car-park to almost daylight levels all night - etc..?

Do we need to illuminate almost every road-sign? Or heat shops to high levels with the doors wide open?

We do, effectively, depend totally on nuclear energy - it all comes from the Sun. Some of it arrives every day as direct radiation and drives the weather systems for wind and rain-based sources - and some of it is stocked up from the past as chemical energy. And there's nuclear energy, from the Sun's ancestors. And there's the small amount of tidal energy that we use, which is partially Solar, but mostly Lunar.

 

[Withnail]

I disagree with the environmental impact and risk. We get earth tremors from mines around all the time. I believe that the environmental argument has been lost.

My understanding is that the risk of tremors intensifies the potential environmental impact - tremors could damage the well shaft which could in turn see the chemically-loaded* injected water leaking into the water table and beyond.

I believe that the environmental argument has been lost only inasmuch as it has disappeared behind lots of bulging £ signs in many eyes.

* Example of a 'loaded' comment

 

[John Marwood]

I am looking forward to the mash potato eating competition at 9.00pm on Saturday eve

 

[andy w]

The Green brigade must be living in cloud cuckoo land if they think renewables on their own are going to meet our energy needs alone. They are against nuclear, and coal and gas which make up virtually all our electricty production and due to the unreliability of wind power other forms of generation are needed to kept as back up.
Only recently it was reported how surplus generation has fallen and will continue to fall to the point where the National Grid will probulary fail to meet demand at peak times leading to black outs. Successive governments have failed build enough capacity when they warned about the forthcoming crunch of closing older nuclear stations and closing coal fired stations to reduce the carbon emissions.
That's not to say renewables haven't a place in the overall plan but realistically for now only a small percentage. I would like to think that within the next 30 or 40 years science will master nuclear fusion but until then we need a credible energy production plan.
Fracking has been a success in America with gas prices lowered and if it is viable in this country then it should go ahead.

 

[John Marwood]

Fuel has to make a profit

 

[proactive]

And as a nps is built for profit and the government commissioning it is made up of eejits how do you really expect, earthquakes from fracking aside, to construct one safely..

Stop the world eating pork, build houses from straw, eat less

The Japanese are fairly keen on nuclear safety and currently have half a million tons of radioactive water stacking up at Fukushima - and now beginning to enter the ground water...

If we just used a bit less energy, it might help. is it necessary to light the whole of Sainsbury's car-park to almost daylight levels all night - etc..?

Do we need to illuminate almost every road-sign? Or heat shops to high levels with the doors wide open?

We do, effectively, depend totally on nuclear energy - it all comes from the Sun. Some of it arrives every day as direct radiation and drives the weather systems for wind and rain-based sources - and some of it is stocked up from the past as chemical energy. And there's nuclear energy, from the Sun's ancestors. And there's the small amount of tidal energy that we use, which is partially Solar, but mostly Lunar.

And there was I thinking what I wrote would be completely uncontroversial...

 

[United57]

Is fracking even actually proposed for Balcombe?

I thought that 'ordinary natural gas' was largely methane.

Why would 'our gas price' come down if we left the EU?

Balcombe is test drilling agree

The Green MP said that fracked has a higher concentrate of methane whilst natural gas may also have butane etc. less harmful she said.

Gas prices coming down would because we would not have the EU energy taxes to worry about

 

[United57]

There are people who worry about the possibility of contaminating ground waters - and there could also be a little less emphasis on carbonless energy sources as a result - perhaps.

And there seems likely to be a link between some small tremors around Blackpool and the initial fracking experiments there.

We have tremors regularly in Staffordshire. We just don't notice them.

 

[John Marwood]

Jilling should be encouraged

 

[United57]

My understanding is that the risk of tremors intensifies the potential environmental impact - tremors could damage the well shaft which could in turn see the chemically-loaded* injected water leaking into the water table and beyond.

I believe that the environmental argument has been lost only inasmuch as it has disappeared behind lots of bulging £ signs in many eyes.

* Example of a 'loaded' comment

493,000 well heads in the US and 1000 complaints. Flaring, methane leakage and water contamination. Is the issue all fracking or not doing it correctly in some cases.

 

[Withnail]

493,000 well heads in the US and 1000 complaints. Flaring, methane leakage and water contamination. Is the issue all fracking or not doing it correctly in some cases.

Indeed.

In the link i posted above the general conclusions (based on skim reading on my part) seem to be that most of the hazards can be mitigated against if a sound regulatory system can be adopted. The question is can it, and will it be effective?

Which is two questions, the answer to both being 'who gives a sh!t, there's money to be made'.

 

[hop]

There are some who quite like the idea of doing it over the fence from a stockbroker's back garden...

Anyone who buys land and does not ensure they own the hunting, shooting, fishing and mineral rights in that land is an idiot.

 

[Gramaisc]

We have tremors regularly in Staffordshire. We just don't notice them.

Are our tremors merely collapsing coal mines?

The Green MP said that fracked has a higher concentrate of methane whilst natural gas may also have butane etc. less harmful she said.

I'm a bit lost there.

In the link i posted above the general conclusions (based on skim reading on my part) seem to be that most of the hazards can be mitigated against if a sound regulatory system can be adopted. The question is can it, and will it be effective?

If it's done in Surrey, then special efforts might be made..

Gas prices coming down would because we would not have the EU energy taxes to worry about

Do we not now pay 'world prices', regardless of the production cost?

Anyone who buys land and does not ensure they own the hunting, shooting, fishing and mineral rights in that land is an idiot.

Very few 'owners' of the surface in the UK will also own the mineral rights.

 

[henryscat]

The Green brigade must be living in cloud cuckoo land if they think renewables on their own are going to meet our energy needs alone. They are against nuclear, and coal and gas which make up virtually all our electricty production and due to the unreliability of wind power other forms of generation are needed to kept as back up.
Only recently it was reported how surplus generation has fallen and will continue to fall to the point where the National Grid will probulary fail to meet demand at peak times leading to black outs. Successive governments have failed build enough capacity when they warned about the forthcoming crunch of closing older nuclear stations and closing coal fired stations to reduce the carbon emissions.
That's not to say renewables haven't a place in the overall plan but realistically for now only a small percentage. I would like to think that within the next 30 or 40 years science will master nuclear fusion but until then we need a credible energy production plan.
Fracking has been a success in America with gas prices lowered and if it is viable in this country then it should go ahead.

This is all based on a predict and provide approach. Successive governments have failed with energy policy but it is not simply about building more capacity. The huge failure is in not reducing consumption and not properly investing in energy efficiency. Most UK homes are still not that efficient.

Most (not all) replies have been silent on the subject of efficiency and also anaerobic digestion to produce gas. Why frack when there is a greatly under utilised source of gas that is not difficult to produce and puts waste to good use?

 

[Franklin_Delano_Roosevelt]

This is all based on a predict and provide approach. Successive governments have failed with energy policy but it is not simply about building more capacity. The huge failure is in not reducing consumption and not properly investing in energy efficiency. Most UK homes are still not that efficient.

Most (not all) replies have been silent on the subject of efficiency and also anaerobic digestion to produce gas. Why frack when there is a greatly under utilised source of gas that is not difficult to produce and puts waste to good use?

It is about building more capacity as well as trying to reduce consumption and improving energy efficiency. Energy policy should be about the full range of strategies to do all of these things. Whilst we can and should do more to make ourselves more energy efficient even if we do everything we can on this we will still need new generation capacity and this can't be provided by renewables alone.

With regards to AD you've strayed into my area as I work in the waste sector. AD isn't as efficient at generating power as you might expect. Also there are huge planning challenges with AD, people more often than not don't want the silos and "visual blight" in rural areas that goes with AD - from a NIMBY perspective it is every bit as unpopular in a Daily Mail bandwagon way as fracking. One application I was involved in (I won't say where for obvious reasons) has over 4,000 letters of objection BEFORE the planning application was even actually submitted. The Government also seems hell bent on making applications for things like AD even more difficult by way of its recent proposed changes to National Planning Policy on sustainable waste management which states that applications in green belt areas will be discouraged - AD generally has to happen in rural locations to get the proximity to farming activities.

Also, in your ideal World where no one eats meat and therefore no one rears livestock I'm not sure where the quantities of waste feedstock for all of your AD plants is going to come from. Holes and inconsistencies in the argument? Surely not....

 

[andy w]

Not that he would accept an invite to my house anyway, but I am struggling to think of anyone I would welcome to a dinner party any less than HC. Or go for a pint with.

Does anyone know him outside of the forum - I mean, has he any friends?

Weren't they advertising for people to go on Come Dine With Me in the Stafford area. I'm sure you and HC would make entertaining contestants and you never know a bromance might develop.

 

[shoes]

And for the main: