End of the Lib Dems?

[John Marwood]

Given the choice between New Labour ( old Tories ) and Conservative ( New Tories ) I voted Lib Dem at the election.

Clearly the Lib Dems were the New New Tories in waiting and I was duped

Having witnessed Clegg over the last few days can there be a future for the Lib Dems ever again?

 

[tek-monkey]

In politics anything is possible, some have already forgotten the last 13 years and are willing to vote labour again already. Personally I think if AV doesn't get implemented they're finished for now, as they don't really seem to be tempering the Tory policies in any way at present.

 

[Withnail]

if AV doesn't get implemented they're finished for now

The logical outcome under a more proportional voting system, given a fluctuating ~40/40/20 % share of vote for the main parties, would have been a succession of LibLab/LibCon coalitions. I say ‘would have’ because i can’t help feeling the LibDems have rather blown it with their shambolic underling approach to this coalition.

To be pro-PR is essentially to be pro-coalition politics. The LibDems have done nothing to promote the cause so far and seem damaged because of it. Are they finished, though? I have no idea.

 

[Goldilox]

some have already forgotten the last 13 years and are willing to vote labour again already

Actually I'm more in the position of realising after only a few months of the alternative, I didn't give Labour nearly enough credit while they were in office. Aside from the Iraq war, they generally did what a Labour government is supposed to, improving public services and the lot of the working man. Under regulation of the financial sector has led us into the mess we're in now, however there have not been enough controls on the banks worldwide, it's by no means been an exclusively British mistake and the Tory opposition of the time were campaigning for less regulation, not more, at the time those mistakes were being made.

Labour had grown stale after so long in power, but generally I think that, had the Conservatives been in government for the last ten years, we'd be in a far worse state than we are now. For all his posturing as an environmentalist and talk of the 'big society' this spending review has revealed Cameron for what he really is, an extremely right-wing neo-con with an ideological commitment to dismantling the welfare state. The laughing and back slapping of the Lib-Dems on the front bench as massive job losses were announced actually left me feeling sick at how thoroughly they've got into bed with this and they certainly won't get my vote in the future.

 

[John Marwood]

some have already forgotten the last 13 years and are willing to vote labour again already

Actually I'm more in the position of realising after only a few months of the alternative, I didn't give Labour nearly enough credit while they were in office. Aside from the Iraq war, they generally did what a Labour government is supposed to, improving public services and the lot of the working man. Under regulation of the financial sector has led us into the mess we're in now, however there have not been enough controls on the banks worldwide, it's by no means been an exclusively British mistake and the Tory opposition of the time were campaigning for less regulation, not more, at the time those mistakes were being made.

Labour had grown stale after so long in power, but generally I think that, had the Conservatives been in government for the last ten years, we'd be in a far worse state than we are now. For all his posturing as an environmentalist and talk of the 'big society' this spending review has revealed Cameron for what he really is, an extremely right-wing neo-con with an ideological commitment to dismantling the welfare state. The laughing and back slapping of the Lib-Dems on the front bench as massive job losses were announced actually left me feeling sick at how thoroughly they've got into bed with this and they certainly won't get my vote in the future.

Yup...

 

[CuteStaffsGuy]

some have already forgotten the last 13 years and are willing to vote labour again already

Actually I'm more in the position of realising after only a few months of the alternative, I didn't give Labour nearly enough credit while they were in office. Aside from the Iraq war, they generally did what a Labour government is supposed to, improving public services and the lot of the working man.

Before anyone accuses me of being Cameron in disguise, I have to ask, are you serious?

They had 10 or more years in order to prepare the country for recession and when it comes they leave us in debt, deficit, deep doodoo and a hole we have to dig ourselves out of, all because Brown believed he could free us from the boom/bust cycle.

The Conservatives probably would have left us in the same position, they are all a bunch of a***holes, but they didn't Labour did, the funniest part of it all, all these people who will lose their jobs, they will vote Labour and blame the Conservatives and not realise that were Labour in power they would have made the same decision or tried to fix things with more of their daft ideas.

 

[Alan B'Stard]

They had 10 or more years in order to prepare the country for recession

Prepare for recession? what economists were expecting one?

The only economic warning consistently given during their tenure was the over inflation of the housing market and nobody foresaw the collapse of the American sub-prime market that led to all of this.

The Conservatives probably would have left us in the same position

I doubt that very much, with their Neo-liberal economic thinking, I shudder to think what could have happened if they were in charge at the time.

 

[John Marwood]

Indeed

 

[Hetairoi]

They had 10 or more years in order to prepare the country for recession

Prepare for recession? what economists were expecting one?

The only economic warning consistently given during their tenure was the over inflation of the housing market and nobody foresaw the collapse of the American sub-prime market that led to all of this.

The Conservatives probably would have left us in the same position

I doubt that very much, with their Neo-liberal economic thinking, I shudder to think what could have happened if they were in charge at the time.

Actually some economists did foresee the collapse of the sub-prime market and anyone who gave it more than a casual glance would have seen that we were heading for trouble.

Lenders were lending 125% of the value of the house gambling on a continued rising market!

They were lending huge sums to people who didn't even have to prove they had an income!

People who had been made bankrupt or had defaulted on other loans were being given large mortgages!

Just those three examples should have been enough for them to have realised that there was a problem.

Unfortuately, once again, greed overtook common sense!

 

[Withnail]

"In these uncertain, unsettling times, with unpopular policies being implemented by a patchwork coalition of the damned, Nick Clegg is proving to be perhaps the most useful tool in the government's shed. Not because he says or does anything particularly inspiring, but because he functions as a universal disappointment sponge for disenchanted voters. You stare at Nick Clegg and feel infinitely unhappy, scarcely noticing Cameron and co hiding behind him."

Charlie Brooker on Nick Clegg

 

[zebidee]

Tool being the operative word. Good points Withnail, Cons must be doing a little party dance every day over that one

 

[John Marwood]

"In these uncertain, unsettling times, with unpopular policies being implemented by a patchwork coalition of the damned, Nick Clegg is proving to be perhaps the most useful tool in the government's shed. Not because he says or does anything particularly inspiring, but because he functions as a universal disappointment sponge for disenchanted voters. You stare at Nick Clegg and feel infinitely unhappy, scarcely noticing Cameron and co hiding behind him."

Charlie Brooker on Nick Clegg

Tis true - but eventually the tide of opinion will turn on shiny faced Dave when the time poor suddenly realise that their local surgery and hospital is now owned by Asda or Tesco and the services are restricted because there aint no profit in providing good care to the elderly,infirm and mentally ill...


Of course, the idiotic can be bought out - just like they were when the Gas, Electricity etc etc were sold off.. and they see a dividend heading their way - a dividend they will spend dozens of times over to get the healthcare they so desperately need - just like they are now spending thousands on heating and water

Every 20 years or so we lose the knowledge of our elders and every 70 years or so we repeat the same hideious mistakes

Be careful of seeing the cuts as purely numbers, it is human nature to detach from the facts that every digit, every pound transferred from the welfare state into the hands of corporations, is hurting and killing your fellow humans

All countries should be judged on how they care for the weakest in their society

 

[Hetairoi]

some have already forgotten the last 13 years and are willing to vote labour again already

Actually I'm more in the position of realising after only a few months of the alternative, I didn't give Labour nearly enough credit while they were in office. Aside from the Iraq war, they generally did what a Labour government is supposed to, improving public services and the lot of the working man. Under regulation of the financial sector has led us into the mess we're in now, however there have not been enough controls on the banks worldwide, it's by no means been an exclusively British mistake and the Tory opposition of the time were campaigning for less regulation, not more, at the time those mistakes were being made.

Labour had grown stale after so long in power, but generally I think that, had the Conservatives been in government for the last ten years, we'd be in a far worse state than we are now. For all his posturing as an environmentalist and talk of the 'big society' this spending review has revealed Cameron for what he really is, an extremely right-wing neo-con with an ideological commitment to dismantling the welfare state. The laughing and back slapping of the Lib-Dems on the front bench as massive job losses were announced actually left me feeling sick at how thoroughly they've got into bed with this and they certainly won't get my vote in the future.

I will never vote Labour again until they return to their roots and start putting the interests of the working man first again!

During their 13 (unlucky for some) years in office they have:-

Got us into two hugely damaging illegal wars
Doubled the public sector without any major benefit
Flooded the country with immigrants
Signed away the country to the EU
Sold all our gold at an all time low
Created an underclass who can't afford to work because of benefits
Presided over two stock market crashes
Bailed out the banks without curbing their excesses

To name but a few!

I am not saying the the Tories would have done any better but until the Labour Party reforms I will never vote for them.

 

[Jenksie]

I nearly put in a tacticle vote in May - just to keep the nutters out.

And partly to register my dismay with the Brown regime.

Couldn't bring myself to do it in the end and I also thought Kidney was a pretty good MP - the new boy is certainly keeping his head down.

As has already been stated the Libs are now a convienient foil for the Tory's - I seem to see more of Vince Cable on the box (looking increasingly lost and confused) than Osbourne.

Only now are people starting to ask "are theses cuts necessary?". Too late.

The Private Sector will pick up the slack which in the olden days meant Priviatisation.

Benefit cuts to single Parents with 7+ year oldsI see this is todays Headline.
No hint of free childcare/afterschool clubs/breakfast clubs I see.

I dispute every one of Hetairoi's list of doom apart from the last one and I don't know what else could have happened.

Got us into two hugely damaging illegal wars

WITH THE FULL SUPPORT OF THE TORIES.

Doubled the public sector without any major benefit

IN 1995 THERE WERE QUARTER OF A MILLION MOD CIVILIANS - NOW THERE ARE 85 THOUSEND.- DO WE WANT LESS DOCTORS, TEACHERS, FIREFIGHTERS, NURSES ETC

Flooded the country with immigrants

WHERE FROM? EU COUNTRIES?

Signed away the country to the EU

MASTRICHT TREATY - SINGLE EUROPEAN ACT - THATCHER MAJOR GOVT.

Sold all our gold at an all time low

Created an underclass who can't afford to work because of
benefits

INTRODUCED A MINIMUM WAGE - OPPOSED BY THE TORY'S AT EVERY STAGE

Presided over two stock market crashes

CAUSED BY GREEDY MULTINATIONALS

Bailed out the banks without curbing their excesses

AT LEAST IT SAVED YOUR SAVINGS AND PENSION.

 

[Hetairoi]

Hey Jenksie, you have me down as a Tory which I am not!

You haven't disputed my list only said it would have been as bad or worse under the Tories which I agree with, that doesn't mean it is right though!

If Tony and Gordon had got their act together we would never have had another Tory government!

 

[Jenksie]

I don't think I ever said you were a Tory - the response was highlighting the fact that your points are the ones often argued by centre and centre right sympathisers.

Increasingly until last week by people of the left too.

The new Labour leadership may change minds - the effects of the cuts certainly will drive people back to the left. I remember the seventies and eighties and those Scargillesque characterisations just won't wash with modern working people.

I've said it before - we are an inherently Right Wing country and when the Left get power, change has to slow and incremental always keeping one eye on a Right biased Media and the Financial Institutions and MultiNationals - not to mention the Military and other establishment groups.

Note how Farmers and the Countryside Alliance are very quiet at the moment. Watch how vocal they become if their grants are cut or Fuel prices rise or some bright spark suggests Taxing the hundreds of Tractors clogging the highways and paying no tax whilst ferrying around large trailers of non agriculture looking stuff.

I digress. I think Brown was a problem not the Labour Party.

 

[basil]

I'm gonna vote for Jenksie at the next election.....

 

[70-plus]

The LibDems are certainly the fool-guys in this Government. Cameron is certainly playing Mr Good Guy now offering pensions of £140 for every pensioner. Cameron is trying to ride above it all (a kind of Hitler figure in Germany where everyone thought that he was wonderful and cared and it was the others that that caused hardship.) Cameron has his Clegg to take all the flack and the Lib-dems will lose credibility more and more. They will not win the AV vote because most people don't understand and don't care about a voting system. All the tories will vote against AV and most labour voters will vote against AV because the lib-dems have proposed it. They will begin to lose elections - by-elections then local elections.
Labour did improve the lot of everyone unfortunately the rich seemed to benefit more. But they put large sums of money into health (just to bring us up to the European average) and they put large sums of money into schools which badly needed investment. They wanted 50% of pupils to go to university which again is a European average. Pensioners have winter fuel allowances and free bus passes. The money used to bail out the banks will come back to us eventually when we sell the shares in the banks that the government owns. Why don't the tories mention this? Because they will use it eventually to win the next election....

 

[Jenksie]

I'm gonna vote for Jenksie at the next election.....

I'm sick of having to apologise for being of the Left all the time.

Amazes me how people get sucked into these quite radical switches. Destroying education, Rolling back the State, tampering with the NHS, attacking the unemployed, Increasing the retirement age, Being a complete Nancy with the Banks, Threatening to Privatise the Motorways etc

Sometimes as a modern working Parent who benefitted from a Free state education and University Place I'm agog at how people stand by and let Banks and Utility companies walk all over us.

Tony Benn used to have a wonderful phrase to put to those in authority along the lines of:

Who elected you?

How do we get rid of you if we need to?

Who are you accountable to?

What makes you think we need you?

Trust no one who can't answer those questions accurately and convincingly.

I'm maybe putting too much faith in Milliband - certainly didn't like him before the leadership contest but he has impressed since without the privilage of Cleggy, Dave, Tone or Grumpy Gordon.

The Libs I fear are destined for oblivion to get back to Marwoods original point - even at local level - Clegg is so detached - more so than Blair.

 

[basil]

I saw clegg on the telly at the weekend, convincing he was not......