Illiterate school-leavers and workless households are destabilising UK economy

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
If kids are leaving school illiterate then the best possible action is to cut teachers pay packages, I am sure that will stimulate them to teach harder. Failing that, we should sell the entire education system to Coca Cola. They can run a global business, teaching oiks how to spell shouldn't be a challenge.
 
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Hetairoi

Well-Known Forumite
You start with a complete re-structuring of the education system where the needs and abilities of the student come first not some outdated National Curriculum.

All eductaion should primarily focus on producing someone who has the skills needed to be employable after all how many employers require their employee to understand algebra?
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
You start with a complete re-structuring of the education system where the needs and abilities of the student come first not some outdated National Curriculum.

All eductaion should primarily focus on producing someone who has the skills needed to be employable after all how many employers require their employee to understand algebra?


No no no, you have it all wrong. What we need is for 50% of the population to get a degree, not try to be employable. If they have degrees it proves how good they are, whilst keeping their 4 years of study off the unemployment lists. Everyone is happy, and now you can get served in Maccy D's by a graduate. Surely that proves how intelligent we are as a country?
 

Hetairoi

Well-Known Forumite
No no no, you have it all wrong. What we need is for 50% of the population to get a degree, not try to be employable. If they have degrees it proves how good they are, whilst keeping their 4 years of study off the unemployment lists. Everyone is happy, and now you can get served in Maccy D's by a graduate. Surely that proves how intelligent we are as a country?

If it wasn't true it would be funny!
 

shoes

Well-Known Forumite
employers require their employee to understand algebra?

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That many.
 

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
how many employers require their employee to understand algebra?
My institution-based 'education' after the age of ten was largely irrelevant to employment. It was mostly about jumping through hoops to placate those who pretended to think that it was important to have pieces of paper, that nobody else has ever looked at, in order to get to the next stage.

I look forward to the introduction of a GSCE exam in Common Sense.
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
My current job is the only place that have ever asked to see my degree certificate, and I started here 10 years after graduating.
 

Gadget

Well-Known Forumite
My institution-based 'education' after the age of ten was largely irrelevant to employment. It was mostly about jumping through hoops to placate those who pretended to think that it was important to have pieces of paper, that nobody else has ever looked at, in order to get to the next stage.

I look forward to the introduction of a GSCE exam in Common Sense.

Hear Hear. I have found that most of my school qualifications are totally irrelevant to any job i have held/would wish to hold. Apart from my basics of English and about 10% ish of the maths i studied (i.e adding up etc) No one cares about my history, integrated humanities or even the french and german, although the languages are brownie points but nothing more. A lot of people frown on the G.C.S.E's in say horse care, at least they may be pertinent to a pupils employment prospects. I mean come on, Integrated Humanities??? total tosh!

I mean no offense to anyone who has been to uni but we are constantly told how superior they are because they have a degree. I often find that they are some of the daftest, clueless individuals out there when they first arrive in the real world, as they have just spend 4 years either being 'terribly intellectual' and partying and don't know how the world works. Very clever but very stupid all at the same time..... But they have a degree so are better than me aparantly. Still can't get a job most of them at the end though.
G x
 

My Name is URL

Well-Known Forumite
I dare say a controversial view that will be likened to the Daily Mail rants, but I think the problems start before the education system gets involved...

In my opinion, in this world there are two groups of people having kids... the rich and the lazy.

The rich can pop kids out and afford to bring them up at the best schools with private tutors etc. Good luck to them, they have the money so why shouldn't they.

The lazy scroungers can pop out loads of kids and let the state pay for them, so they have 4, 5, 6.... kids who they then 'drag up' with little love and care, hence the illiterate school leavers... Can't blame it all on the parents themselves though, the government (of any colour) have allowed this to happen for years and years...

Its the squeezed working to middle class who (generally) would make a good job of raising kids with good values and education, but can't afford to have kids or only one or two.

So all the time we are getting a higher and higher ratio of feral kids to good kids. However don't get me wrong, its not the kids fault, its the morals / ethics of the lazy parents that they instill into their offspring. No kid is born bad IMHO.

Also obviously the teachers have a lot to do with it i.e. spotting problems and dealing with them, but they can't do it all on their own.
 

shoes

Well-Known Forumite
If we had a tiered schooling system then we could group kids together based on ability and teach them accordingly, without the less academic holding back the brighter kids, or the brighter kids leaving the less academic kids behind.

Of course, that would, despite being terribly sensible, be seen as a terrible thing to do to kids - because feelings and image are regarded as greater persuasion to the education system than education itself.

military school < mcschool < pe teacher school < lower ability school < middle ability school < grammar school < mensa school

Do the exam and see what you land.
 

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
military school < mcschool < pe teacher school < lower ability school < middle ability school < grammar school < mensa school
My secondary education involved three grammar schools and a comprehensive school, which was run by the MOD, and which was the only one that was any use at all. The three grammar schools were just weird and full of pomposity* - If you've ever seen Lindsay Anderson's film If...., then you've seen the first volume of my autobiography.

*They did teach me how to spot an arrogant knob-head who doesn't really know anything and then undermine him without him even knowing that it's happening, but I don't think that that was on their curriculum.

I've said it before, and, no doubt, will have to say it again - If you rely on schools for your education, then you've lost already.
 

Franklin_Delano_Roosevelt

Well-Known Forumite
Illiterate school-leavers and workless households are destabilising UK economy.

So how do we tackle this issue. I know some forumites have strong views.

I picked this up as I was scanning through the papers in Costa

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2152209/UK-economy-destabilised-high-house-prices-mortgage-debt-EC-issues-warning-annual-report.html#ixzz1wQuoKTTG

Of course if it happens to be in the Daily Mail it all must be completely and utterly true. Presumably this article was found somewhere between the columns on extortunate petrol prices, the number of immigrants flooding into the UK and the number of teenagers who breed babies to get benefits & Council Houses
 
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tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
I believe we have a lot more kids leaving school illiterate nowadays than 20 years ago? When I was a kid it was perfectly acceptable to call someone a mong if they couldn't read by 8 (let alone 16) and we had less of them. We need more peer pressure!
 

Gadget

Well-Known Forumite
Schools are too busy teaching, humanities and 'citizenship' rather than spending some extra quality time to ensure that johnny over there can actually read. Reduce the daft subjects untill everyone can read and write. When you can read and write, then you can learn some not so essentials. And if that means that some kids leave school with only English and Maths then so be it.
G x
 

Wolfenrook

Well-Known Forumite
The thing is, apart from the idiot here and there posting about how "lazy parents are popping off kids just to get benefits" (for the record, I went to uni, trained as a mental health nurse, then life fed me a curve ball, I now am unable to work for reasons that are our business, and have 4 kids. Contrary to THAT opinion our kids are been raised with a focus upon ethics, literacy etc missing in so many children in this day and age. So quite typecasting people according to your own limited views.) you're all correct in what you believe is causing these problems.

The biggest cause however is that kids now look at the world and see that no matter how hard they strive, unless they are privileged kids from the off, then the odds are they're going to end up jobless and in the system. Add into this that society has managed to leave parents, the police and schools in the position where there comes a point where you CAN'T make kids do as they're told, and kids know this, and you're left with a complete and utter mess!

I blame this mess on do gooders, reformers and the plonkers who live in the belief that they know best. The same folks who yell that you can't discriminate against children who are lets face it really thick and holding back brighter class mates. The same folks who have insisted that children are taught BS topics like humanities etc. Ahh heck, you get the idea. TOO MUCH has been changed, and oh look, turns out it's not for the better after all.

Teaching kids is NOT the sole responsibility of schools, but should be shared between schools, parents and yes society as a whole. Illiteracy has sod all to do with parents on benefits, that's just a by product of the fact that their parents failed in the exact same way as their kids will. Been on benefits is NOT the cause, it's the end result.

The other thing I have to say thoug is, who the heck reckons the kids are illiterate? Oh yes, a 'newspaper'. Sorry, but illiteracy is NOT the biggest problem facing our children. That title gets to be held by the simple fact that too many kids these days believe they are untouchable, that they can do as they please and have a complete lack or respect for the rights, property or person of others. Try getting the police to do anything about criminal behaviour in under 14s some time, and you will quickly find out why... They tend to turn around and say that they can't do a thing, that that is up to parents and schools. The problem parents, schools etc have though is, goverment have removed their ability to control the kids. Whilst trying to protect children, they have in fact been too wishy washy with the laws created, leaving parents with huge doubts about just what exactly they can do short of taking away little Johnny's xbox which doesn't work anyway. Oh well you should reward the good behaviour they say... Hmmm yes, that would be the one where kids behave just long enough to earn the reward.....

Me, I say give parents more tools to reign in unruly kids. Take away this idea kids have that "You can't make me!". Maybe boot camps aren't such a bad idea after all.... SUPPORT the parents, rather than keeping them feeling threatened and scared to do anything. SUPPORT the schools, rather than banning more and more of the punishments they can use (I mean seriously, when I was a kid the idea of detention was terrifying! What the heck changed?). Society, STOP standing in judgement on parents, start trying to work with them rather than against them!

Here's a really good example of how messed up things have gotten. Parents can be taken to court and fined now if their kids miss school too much. Ok that's fair enough, no argument with this where it's the fault of the parents. Here's the thing though (not personal experience this by the way), parent a starts walking their kid to the school gates to make sure they get to school BEFORE this happens, that's about the most they can do realistically. Kid a however runs away from parent a before they reach the gates and parent a is scared to restrain them for fear that they will end up been arrested. Or alternatively they get their kid to school, kid walks through the gates, parent watches them until the kids all go in, kid simply walks out when parent a has left, so they never reach registration, et voila counted as absent. So great, some bright spark decided that fining parents would force them to send their kids to school, what they forgot though is that in many cases they ARE sending their kids to school, and are doing as much as they feel they are able to to ensure they go. Heck I have seen myself just how lax schools can be in controlling kids once they get through the school gates. Heck, we know somebody who drives her kid to school, on time. He regularly skips registration though and just goes straight to his classes. Meanwhile his mum is copping flack for her kids 'lates'. Kid isn't late at all, just nobody in the school is taking the time and responsibility to ensure her kid goes to registration once he is IN school....

Our current systems aren't set up to ensure kids reach their optimum at all. It's set up to punish, not support.

As to "peer pressure", sorry Tek, that's called bullying and tends to just result in suicide, psychological damage or kids behaving even worst. Peer SUPPORT would be far more useful, but kids have never been great at this.

Ade
 

shoes

Well-Known Forumite
So to summarise:

Parents should be allowed to smack kids again for disciplinary purposes.
The police and teachers as above within reason.
Tiered education where the thickest to the brightest are all segregated and taught accordingly.
Parents are charged with the responsibility of getting the kids to school, at 9.15am the gates are locked, the electric barbed wire is energised and the kids stay there until 2.30 (or whatever time kids at comps finish school these days).
Ditch pointless subjects - citizenship, religious studies etc. and spend more time focussing on core essentials
Stop poor people procreating where possible
Encourage the rich to continue procreating
Get gramaisc to conduct lessons on spotting knobheads and subtly undermining them

Well, can't say I disagree with any of the above. Lets get the plan into action!
 
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