Illiterate school-leavers and workless households are destabilising UK economy

Wolfenrook

Well-Known Forumite
I'd agree with most of that Shoe's, except the bit about poor and rich parents. Can we modify it to suitable and unsuitable parents? I say this as some of the worst kids I have ever had the misfortune to meet were the offspring of wealthy parents, some of the best the offspring of supposedly poor parents.

As to knobhead spotting, I'd suggest visiting the houses of parliament, but that's rather like taking somebody lobster fishing at Makro.

Ade
 

My Name is URL

Well-Known Forumite
So to summarise:

Stop poor people procreating where possible
Encourage the rich to continue procreating

To be fair, I think (if the above was surmised from my post) that I was more thinking

- 'Stop all benefits related to people having kids, so they can only have them when they get off their arses and work for a living'

The problem with that is, and always will be that if you do this, its the poor kids that have to live with knob head parents with no money... its a viscous circle because they themselves are then more likely to be scummers in future.
 

My Name is URL

Well-Known Forumite
The thing is, apart from the idiot here and there posting about how "lazy parents are popping off kids just to get benefits" (for the record, I went to uni, trained as a mental health nurse, then life fed me a curve ball, I now am unable to work for reasons that are our business, and have 4 kids. Contrary to THAT opinion our kids are been raised with a focus upon ethics, literacy etc missing in so many children in this day and age. So quite typecasting people according to your own limited views.) you're all correct in what you believe is causing these problems.

Was the above in response to my original post?

Without delving into your personal life, and I have no idea what this curve ball is / was and if your partner works etc, but if for example you had two kids, had a major accident that stopped you and your partner from working, but then decided to pop out two more kids, then I believe that is irresponsible (assuming you didn't have savings or compensation for the accident etc)

I dare say you wouldn't have popped out the extra two kids just to get rich off benefits, because i don't believe that happens... but regardless, in general for anyone, I believe you shouldn't have kids if you can't afford to bring them up without state support.

I recently ready that it costs £200,000 to raise a child from birth to 18. So for instance the bloke who has just been charged with killing five of his kids in the house fire... he had 17 kids x £200,000 = £3.4m.... obviously the £200,000 is an average figure and it doesn't mean that is what someone would get in benefits.... but you get the general idea.

In general though, (and please don't take offence) I think people having lots of kids is selfish because it is leading to an ever increasing population that is literally consuming the earth like vermin.... but thats a world problem and nothing to do with benefits etc.
 

My Name is URL

Well-Known Forumite
Indeed, it can be quite sticky to get out of..

Ha ha, well spotted.... have a certificate :)

311430-help-london-tube-please-smart-ass-award-0fa.jpg
 

Wolfenrook

Well-Known Forumite
Was the above in response to my original post?

Without delving into your personal life, and I have no idea what this curve ball is / was and if your partner works etc, but if for example you had two kids, had a major accident that stopped you and your partner from working, but then decided to pop out two more kids, then I believe that is irresponsible (assuming you didn't have savings or compensation for the accident etc)

I dare say you wouldn't have popped out the extra two kids just to get rich off benefits, because i don't believe that happens... but regardless, in general for anyone, I believe you shouldn't have kids if you can't afford to bring them up without state support.

I recently ready that it costs £200,000 to raise a child from birth to 18. So for instance the bloke who has just been charged with killing five of his kids in the house fire... he had 17 kids x £200,000 = £3.4m.... obviously the £200,000 is an average figure and it doesn't mean that is what someone would get in benefits.... but you get the general idea.

In general though, (and please don't take offence) I think people having lots of kids is selfish because it is leading to an ever increasing population that is literally consuming the earth like vermin.... but thats a world problem and nothing to do with benefits etc.

I took offense to your first post, the rest just build upon it.

I for one believe we are probably doing a better job of raising our kids than your parents did with you, or that you would do with your own kids.

I also believe that you should stop trying to dictate to people how they live their lives, go target your vitriol at the people who deserve it, eg. the smokers, the excessive drinkers and the politicians.

If you don't want people to take offense, don't make offensive posts. Saying things like "please don't take offense" or "no offense meant" when you post something you know somebody will find offensive does not excuse you, so either man up and admit you intended offense and don't really care, or don't make offensive posts.

Regards
 

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
Another good article highlighting lazy parents. How many children are not ready for school at 5. Are not toilet trained cannot use a knife and fork and cannot sit at table.
Just send 'em back until they reach the required entry standard. Many people treat public schools* as merely 'free' state-funded daytime child-management facilities.

*In the true sense of the words 'public schools' - one of the few improvements that Americans have made to the language.
 

Wolfenrook

Well-Known Forumite
Just send 'em back until they reach the required entry standard. Many people treat public schools* as merely 'free' state-funded daytime child-management facilities.

*In the true sense of the words 'public schools' - one of the few improvements that Americans have made to the language.

More parents need to take more responsibility, agreed. I for one am a parent governor at my 2nd oldest's old school still, and we actually pulled our oldest out of one school as their standards etc were that poor! We did this in consultation with an Education Welfare officer, explaining our reasons etc, and even he found it hard to credit just how rubbish they were! She starts at her new school after the break, and has been informed by them that she is already a full 12 months behind there!!! She was considered one of the brightest kids at her old school....

If your kid is doing badly at school, you need to notice this and find out why! Not ignore it and hope it goes away.

Ade
 

zebidee

Well-Known Forumite
We have children starting school earlier than is necessary in this country. I'm with G: they shouldn't be there until they are capable.
“Children at five are coming in with lower and lower ability to get on with their work,” she added.
“At the moment children aren’t ready for school at five.”
Children at 5 should not be expected to turn up to school and 'get on with work' !!! ffs, where has childhood gone?
I have more views but I doubt they'll be popular with the vocal individuals here.
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
If they are leaving school illiterate then I find it hard to think we start them too early? Too many rely completely on the state for education though, those kids will always have it tough.
 

Wolfenrook

Well-Known Forumite
We have children starting school earlier than is necessary in this country. I'm with G: they shouldn't be there until they are capable.

Children at 5 should not be expected to turn up to school and 'get on with work' !!! ffs, where has childhood gone?
I have more views but I doubt they'll be popular with the vocal individuals here.

The difference between you zebidee, and a "more vocal individual" is they don't care with what they post is popular with somebody. Post it, Gadget and myself will be interested I am sure.

I do agree though, 5 is nothing. I couldn't walk until I was 4 and a half. Was this my parent's fault? No, I have minimal cerebral palsy. At 6 I got moved to special school because the main stream one I was in decided they "couldn't cope" with me, including because I wasn't completely toilet trained, again thanks to my disability. At 9 years old I got moved back to main stream school, and went on to train and qualify as a mental health nurse....

Different children develop at different rates, and have different needs. We need to stop trying to pretend that they're all the same, and trying to pass them through a factory production line. But variety costs more....

Ade
 

Wolfenrook

Well-Known Forumite
If they are leaving school illiterate then I find it hard to think we start them too early? Too many rely completely on the state for education though, those kids will always have it tough.

I agree with the 2nd part completely. However I feel the illiteracy (which I doubt is even genuine, some of the folks who whine about this should try some of the work kids have to do these days...) and whether kids are ready for school are different things. I also believe that the 2nd part of your statement merges in nicely with their starting too soon in some cases, where they SHOULD be at home been taught by their parents.

As parents we have more educational tools than ever, with easy access to internet and documentary channels. The problem is the country is full of stupid people, same as it always has been. Only "back then" they were called "salt of the earth" and could get jobs in a factory. Maybe we are going at it wrong? Maybe the answer is not to take money off them, but reward them for doing a good job with their kids? Maybe that will get them off their bottoms?

Ade
 

zebidee

Well-Known Forumite
If they are leaving school illiterate then I find it hard to think we start them too early? Too many rely completely on the state for education though, those kids will always have it tough.

Tek - if you spent your whole life from the age of 5 (or 3 if you have an over-enthusiastic nursery) being told you aren't good enough, you don't fit in, don't do that, get out of there, it's not time to go outside, stop doing that really interesting thing and sit here and look at my damn flashcards; how would you feel?

Early education switches (some) kids OFF. Convinced you can't do something from an early age? Why would you bother trying later? Children are churned out of these factoriesschools with a sense of failure. They are disconnected from parents and suspicious of authority. Love and compassion are wholly missing (often in families too, not just the school system) and you can't replace those with MORE discipline. Hug a f*cking hoodie guys.
 

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
There was a proramme on Radio 4 some time ago about education in Finland, where they don't go to school until seven - it made me feel ashamed of what we do here and call it 'education'..
 

Wolfenrook

Well-Known Forumite
Comes down to the educational institution and the child again zebidee, but I do indeed agree that some educational institutions switch some kids off. On the flip side, some kids in some schools absolutely thrive! Again I can give an example. On of our children has an autistic spectrum disorder, her development was SERIOUSLY slowed. Luckily she was accepted into special school at 2 1/2! Suddenly she thrived! Her speech improved beyond belief! She was in a brilliant class in an excellent special school however. She's 5 now, but thanks to our moving home is out of school. Her behaviour is suffering greatly as an effect of this. We just can't provide the structured environment etc that she needs.

On the flip side, our oldest, who we pulled out of school as they were absolutely chronic learned more in 2 weeks at home been taught by us than she had in 6 months at her old school! At home she was been nurtured and challenged, at school she was been bullied, nagged over stupid and inconsequential things (like been told off for saying ouch when other students hurt her in class...) and served drivel way below her level.

Some kids need more discipline, some need more nurturing. Every child is a unique individual, and like it or not they are moulded by their schools, parents and society. We need to stop treating them like they are all the same, they're not. Our current systems DELIBERATELY disconnect children from their parents, the minute they are born 'professionals' (many of who have never actually had children...) arrive and start taking control, when they reach school age this just gets worst.

As I said before, we need to move away from a culture of punishing parents, and towards one where parents are supported. Away from a culture that insists that somebody not the parent looks after their children whilst the parents go to work, to one where parents are encouraged to raise their own children.

Too right I don't work in the traditional sense! I work in that I am raising my own kids, and supporting my wife. Of our 4 daughters, 1 has a mild global delay, 1 has an autistic spectrum disorder and the youngest is supposed to be been assessed as well. Better I am home helping with them and supporting my wife. If there are people who don't like this, tough for them. Lazy? My wife and I work 24 hours a day 7 days a week, including been woken up at regular times during the night, meaning we often have to grab sleep when we can. Did I chose this life? No I didn't. One day I hope to be able to return to work, unfortunately that's just not possible right now. Again I say if you don't like this, that's your problem and not mine.

Regards

Ade
 
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