Planning and traffic in Stafford.... terrible?

[henryscat]

The government stopped spending tax from motorists specifically on roads in 1936...

The VAT on a CD I bought last week pays for the roads just as much as any tax revenue from road transport, because it all goes into general taxation.

The costs imposed by car use go far beyond just constructing and maintaining roads though. For example:
cost of accidents - death, injury, emergency services, and NHS;
cost of emissions - exhaust emissions are one of the main causes of respiratory illness, which puts a big cost on the NHS to treat;
cost of congestion - costs the economy billions in lost time, inefficient deliveries, and wasted fuel;
less healthy population because people go in the car everywhere rather than get exercise and walk or cycle for short journeys.

I could be wrong, but I thought it was common knowledge that of the millions of pounds of tax paid by motorists, only a small percentage is actually spent on roads etc...

 

[My Name is URL]

No offence to you henryscat, but the "VAT of CD" stuff is irrelevant and I think you knew what I meant... the rubbish about "general taxation" is just so the government can get away with taxing certain groups to the hilt to feather their own nests without having to justify not spending full amounts on improving services in the area the tax is taken from.

As for the other costs besides roads, you are of course correct, but a) roads aren't just used by motorists, b) hospitals / ambulances etc aren't just used by people hit by cars, c) emissions aren't just created by motorists d) people aren't just unhealthy because they drive rather than walk...

Also, you forget the benefits road transport brings, your ambulances would be treating no one without roads, not so many people would get to work without roads, what would happen to your productivity then... etc etc

 

[tek-monkey]

As for the other costs besides roads, you are of course correct, but a) roads aren't just used by motorists, b) hospitals / ambulances etc aren't just used by people hit by cars, c) emissions aren't just created by motorists d) people aren't just unhealthy because they drive rather than walk...

I don't think at any point he said this was the case? But you can't deny each of the costs he listed are higher due to drivers.

 

[db]

believe it or not, people haven't always walked around with phones in their pockets, listening to their ipods while checking emails on their PDAs.. those things have arrived over the last couple of decades as a result of advances in technology.. with the hundreds of billions of pounds being pumped into researching alternative power sources by the automobile industry, you're incredibly naive if you think that non-petrol powered cars aren't around the corner.. just because it seems unlikely now, what's to say we're not on the brink of some quantum jump in our understanding which allows us to figure out how to get 1.21 gigawatts of energy out of a single drop of water?

I have absolutely no doubt that the car industry is capable of the mass production of fuel cell cars in the not too distant future. The question is can a viable hydrogen production and distribution system be put in place, and the answer to that at the moment is no. Hydrogen is not a fuel, it does not exist in a natural state. It is an energy carrier, so its production requires the input of energy. No "quantum jump in our understanding" is going to break the laws of physics. You can't magic energy from nothing!!

i didn't mention fuel cells, or hydrogen, or breaking the laws of physics.. there are other ways of powering cars.. i have absolutely no doubt in my mind that car manufacturers will come up with a commercially viable way of keeping cars on the roads without petrol in the next 20 years..

 

[Edd209]

Fred Flintstone had the right idea http://bedrock.deadsquid.com/img/group/flintstonecars/fred_wilma_baby_car.jpg

 

[My Name is URL]

But you can't deny each of the costs he listed are higher due to drivers.

Agreed, but it goes back to my original point, drivers pay a disproportionately high amount of tax for the benefits they receive or the "costs" that they incur for the government.

Hospital costs for example are also higher due to sporting injuries, DIY injuries and old people but none of them get taxed more.....

Anyway enough of tax, back to the original point of the post which people continue to miss, I wasn't particularly wanting to get into the "poor old drivers" debate.... my points originally were:

1. The council (is it the BC or the CC, I never know) continue to build more houses/shops/offices without any plans to improve infrastructure... Everyone knows more houses/offices/shops means more traffic, and Stafford is bad enough as it is now... In the three short years I have lived in Stafford they have 1) built the new B&Q/Argos etc, 2) built the new Next and other shops that will be put in there 3) planned the new travelodge/KFC/Pizza Hut 4) built the new houses (The Crossings?!?) in the same area. Thats only in one small area of town and where have the improvments to infrastructure been to accomodate these? All they have done is put in new junctions to make the traffic flow even worse.


2. Public transport in Stafford needs to be improved dramitically... as someone already said, busses are stuck in the same traffic that cars are so are next to useless. Add to that the fact that they run too infrequently and are always late....

 

[tek-monkey]

2. Public transport in Stafford needs to be improved dramitically... as someone already said, busses are stuck in the same traffic that cars are so are next to useless. Add to that the fact that they run too infrequently and are always late....

Yet another reason I got my CBT. Using a motorbike rather than trains/buses will actually save me over an hour a day, more if I take in to account the times I miss my usual train and have to wait an hour for the next one.

 

[expert]

Just looking at one area that has had lots of development recently the A34 by B&Q. With the introduction of more traffic lights the A34 traffic congestion has got worse. I therefore have a suggestion that should improve traffic flow. As this is my first attempt there may be a few modifications (suggestions welcome) please no use the car less as a response.

Instead of having traffic travelling into Stafford along the A34 and stopping at the traffic lights by Lloyds bank (causing a queue back to the Queensway roundabout) divert the traffic past Argos and around the back of Lloyds. Instead of coming to traffic lights the traffic can keep going round the corner. Traffic would be stopped going down the Riverway from the A34. This would keep traffic moving up to the roundabout into the centre.

As part of this there would need to be an improvement to the link between Baswich and Weston School giving better access to the University / Hospital.

The next stage would be to improve the roundabout at the end of the A34 (still thinking about that one)

To go along the A34 out of town traffic would have to go past the new leisure centre and travel along the Riverway. As part of this there would need to be improvement to the traffic lights by the leisure centre. For example allow traffic to turn right while the traffic lights travelling into town are on red. Once traffic reaches Lloyds bank the traffic could turn left or go straight on to the retail park. Traffic that wants to turn left would have to go past Lloyds to the roundabout and come back.

This would mean the traffic lights next to Lloyds Bank could be removed and ease traffic flow.

I hope I have explained this clearly and this would improve traffic flow and ease congestion.

And yes there would need to be other improvements to stop the problem from moving to another part of the town, but let’s focus on one improvement first.

Imagine in the picture below that the black lines are walls. I am not suggesting building walls it is just to try and explain my idea.

 

[db]

not bad.. since they changed the rules at that Lloyd's bank crossroads (i.e. you're not allowed to go down riverway when going into town/coming from argos) there really is no need for it to even be there, so i think your suggestion is a very logical one..

and i think we can all agree that there definitely needs to be a more sensible way of getting from baswich to the university/hospital area.. the little bridges that provide the only route at the moment are a nightmare, and whoever thought it would be a good idea to send buses via that route needs their head read..

 

[Scuttlingb]

2. Public transport in Stafford needs to be improved dramitically... as someone already said, busses are stuck in the same traffic that cars are so are next to useless. Add to that the fact that they run too infrequently and are always late....

I'm not

 

[Scuttlingb]

and whoever thought it would be a good idea to send buses via that route needs their head read..

No-one did! and before you tell me you've seen one it was probably a driver "out of service" taking a short cut trying to avoid the traffic!

 

[db]

and whoever thought it would be a good idea to send buses via that route needs their head read..

No-one did! and before you tell me you've seen one it was probably a driver "out of service" taking a short cut trying to avoid the traffic!

ah right.. yeah, i've seen buses round there a few times, so just assumed there was a route round there..

still, they're a nightmare (the bridges, not buses lol) so i'm all for a better road link to the uni..

 

[tek-monkey]

Well as you can see from this pic, all traffic from J14 pretty much has to use the town, regardless of where its heading unless it needs to go north. The beaconside road goes halfway round, then stops. All that does is get more people onto the weston road, which during school runs is choked anyway.

Extending the beaconside road seems the most logical solution, as a lot of it is already there. If we took the beaconside road from the uni roundabout straight across to Baswich, its mainly just fields. Unfortunately as mentioned earlier, I doubt baswich residents would like it. Can't see another way around stafford though, not easily anyway.

 

[henryscat]

i didn't mention fuel cells, or hydrogen, or breaking the laws of physics.. there are other ways of powering cars.. i have absolutely no doubt in my mind that car manufacturers will come up with a commercially viable way of keeping cars on the roads without petrol in the next 20 years..

It was implied though! The link that you posted on Mercedes was talking about fuel cells as well as bio-fuels and electric which both have major limiting factors attached to them.

Also, you forget the benefits road transport brings, your ambulances would be treating no one without roads, not so many people would get to work without roads, what would happen to your productivity then... etc etc

I have not anywhere said about doing away with roads. Clearly they are necessary for the transport network and society to function. I have only spoken about using road transport less which actually has a lot of benefits. Less does not equal not at all. We are already at a point where road transport is causing a lot of negative impacts - economic, environmental and social - and these need to be reduced.

Agreed, but it goes back to my original point, drivers pay a disproportionately high amount of tax for the benefits they receive or the "costs" that they incur for the government.

If you look at all the costs involved, drivers are not paying out of proportion. Because of the costs that congestion imposes on the economy, drivers are arguably paying too little for the road space they use at peak times. That's before you add in all the other pollution and accident costs.

Looking at things from another angle: up until this year, motoring costs have been virtually static in real terms (and against a background of generally rising incomes). Compare that to bus and rail fares which have gone up 80% above inflation since the late 70s, and which continue to rise above inflation year on year. So, people who have to rely on public transport (25%ish of households don't have a car) or choose to use public transport have faced these above inflation cost increases, whilst drivers generally haven't. It is public transport users who are worse off.

2. Public transport in Stafford needs to be improved dramitically... as someone already said, busses are stuck in the same traffic that cars are so are next to useless. Add to that the fact that they run too infrequently and are always late....

I wouldn't disagree that some improvements could be made. However, if people got out of their car the bus wouldn't be stuck in traffic. To say that buses "run too infrequently" as a blanket statement is simply not true IMO. What is an acceptable frequency? Many areas of the town are pretty well served. Number 9 Highfields to Town is every 10 minutes; number 8 Burton Manor or Parkside to Town every 12 minutes (on top of which 101 goes down Stone Road every 20 mins); number 1 from Baswich every 20 minutes, plus 825 along A513 every 30 mins. That's not outrageously infrequent.

and i think we can all agree that there definitely needs to be a more sensible way of getting from baswich to the university/hospital area.. .

There is.... On a bicycle.... Only a mile and half ish?

 

[db]

and i think we can all agree that there definitely needs to be a more sensible way of getting from baswich to the university/hospital area.. .

There is.... On a bicycle.... Only a mile and half ish?

look, just stop it.. accept that there are some people who will never ride bike, even if our children are crying tears of pure tar from their polluted ducts.. as someone else has said, riding a bike in a suit is not a viable alternative.. and no, before you say - riding in one set of clothes and changing at one's destination is not a suitable option for a professional..

we have had plenty of debate about why cars are the devil, which has been very interesting and to be honest i'm just glad that the people on this forum have had something to talk about for once.. but please respect the wishes of the original poster and contributors such as expert and:

please no use the car less as a response.

 

[RoadRunner]

Just looking at one area that has had lots of development recently the A34 by B&Q. With the introduction of more traffic lights the A34 traffic congestion has got worse. I therefore have a suggestion that should improve traffic flow. As this is my first attempt there may be a few modifications (suggestions welcome) please no use the car less as a response.

Instead of having traffic travelling into Stafford along the A34 and stopping at the traffic lights by Lloyds bank (causing a queue back to the Queensway roundabout) divert the traffic past Argos and around the back of Lloyds. Instead of coming to traffic lights the traffic can keep going round the corner.

How about round that last corner and to the right rather than left ... ? ie. the loop containing Lloyds bank and the new restaurant becomes a one way gyratory? I just wonder if it's possible to fit the turn into the space at the south-est end of it...

 

[db]

How about round that last corner and to the right rather than left ... ?

eh? wouldn't that mean you end up going back the way you came?

 

[My Name is URL]

You win henryscat...

I agree with you that we need to reduce our reliance on cars, but anyone who believes drivers don't pay a disproportionate amount of tax will never understand.....

And the stuff about congestion, you'll just never get it....

 

[tek-monkey]

I agree with you that we need to reduce our reliance on cars, but anyone who believes drivers don't pay a disproportionate amount of tax will never understand.....

Disproportionate to who, exactly? To the people who drink? Or those who smoke? You choose to do it, you get stiffed by the government, deal with it. I've managed the last 11 years without any form of transport, its not hard. My GF has never had a car and she has 2 kids, yes it'd be a lot easier but its not essential. Yes I'm now getting a bike, but I'm not gonna whinge about road tax or fuel costs.

Cos mines only gonna be £15 a year tax and 80+ mpg

And the stuff about congestion, you'll just never get it....

Which bits don't we get? It was me who highlighted the bus problem you meantioned, so I get that part. As for the rest, how do we build a better road structure to the town centre without flattening a ****load of houses etc. to put the roads in? We can't really, and any attempt to do so will raise complaints. Its very hard to widen a road network, because people aren't happy when their front lawn becomes a major road.

 

[My Name is URL]

Yes I'm now getting a bike, but I'm not gonna whinge about road tax or fuel costs.

For now maybe, but what happens in 10, 20, 30 years time when fuel costs £10 per litre....

Ok we think it won't happen, or "i won't have my bike by then" or other excuses, but my point is car drivers weren't whinging 10 years ago when fuel was cheap....