Gramaisc
Forum O. G.
"Nigel Farage had to find refuge in a pub" - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22559526 - mm, not the best start North of the Border..
-
Welcome to Stafford Forum. Please or sign-up and start posting!
How will you vote in the Staffordshire County Council elections 2013?
- Thread starter Roland
- Start date
Well I suppose it's a change from Question Time. Maybe measured political discussion has a different meaning North of the Border.
I love the irony in a foaming at the mouth mob shouting down a 'fascist', then calling him a racist and a xenophobe then telling to go back to England.
I love the irony in a foaming at the mouth mob shouting down a 'fascist', then calling him a racist and a xenophobe then telling to go back to England.
ATJ
Well-Known Forumite
What rot.
He turned up in their town, bringing xenophobia, discrimination, and homophobia, and they told him to get lost. Good on them.
Farage wasn't there for measured political discussion, he was there for a photo call and cosy chat with the press in the pub, no opposition invited.
If only those south of the border did the same when we saw someone trying to sow the seeds of racism in our streets instead of 25% voting for them.
He turned up in their town, bringing xenophobia, discrimination, and homophobia, and they told him to get lost. Good on them.
Farage wasn't there for measured political discussion, he was there for a photo call and cosy chat with the press in the pub, no opposition invited.
If only those south of the border did the same when we saw someone trying to sow the seeds of racism in our streets instead of 25% voting for them.
Withnail
Well-Known Forumite
Well one of their former members successfully sued them for discrimination on the grounds of her sexuality - so that's discrimination and homophobia covered.
Xenophobia shouldn't take long to unearth...
I remember reading Richard Littlejohn ( I know, that won't surprise many people) and he said that whenever he was struggling to find a viewpoint on a particular subject he would read Polly Toynbee's column and then take the opposite view. To that effect I do similar when reading the Guardian's website and whilst there is a lot of wrong headedness on the site, there is also a lot of sensible comment written as well. What I have to smile at is the level of self righteousness on there. Now I know we are all guilty of believing every opinion and viewpoint you hold is the right one but the level of piousness from some of the posters stops them from accepting that other people can hold views different from their own.
This intolerance leads to name calling and clichés. For instance if you don't accept the perceived wisdom of global warming then you are a denier, if you want an immigration policy similar to Australia then you are xenophobic, if you against same sex marriage then you are homophobic, if you want to return powers and law making to this country from Brussels then you are a Little Englander.
It seems when people are struggling to win an argument they resort to heckling and abuse.
This intolerance leads to name calling and clichés. For instance if you don't accept the perceived wisdom of global warming then you are a denier, if you want an immigration policy similar to Australia then you are xenophobic, if you against same sex marriage then you are homophobic, if you want to return powers and law making to this country from Brussels then you are a Little Englander.
It seems when people are struggling to win an argument they resort to heckling and abuse.
Gramaisc
Forum O. G.
Do you really want an immigration policy that is formed by an unwelcome influx of foreigners from the other side of the globe who didn't even recognise the original inhabitants as people until 1972?
ATJ
Well-Known Forumite
The Farage defence! It can't be that I've taken the time to read UKIP policies, study the actions of their representatives and independently conclude that they're reprehensible? Oh no! I must just be a Guardian reading left wing loony fascist oxymoron!
Because it's perfectly reasonable for you to properly study UKIP's ideas and decide you're all for them, but not perfectly reasonable for me to do the same and conclude the opposite?
As for name calling, I'm not the one who accused people engaging in perfectly peaceful protest of foaming at the mouth mob mentality or implied they're guilty of anti- English hypocrisy.
It goes without saying, I think, that I am opposed to UKIP's official policies of leaving the EU, bringing back smoking in pubs, increasing defence spending 40%, barring same sex marriage, ending inheritance tax, ending national insurance, introducing a flat rate tax and reducing workers rights.
I'm sure you can support all of those things without being racist, discriminatory or homophobic. I'm sure.
But as with all parties, they are to be judged not by official manifestos but by the actions and words of their representatives. UKIP can keep claiming that they don't endorse the racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-Semitic things that their supporters say but a party is made up of its members, and when your members and representatives are repeatedly shown to be racist, sexist, homophobic and discriminatory then guess what that makes UKIP.
Sexism from Donor
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/468535/20130517/ukip-women-demetri-marchessini.htm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...stile-and-unmarried-mothers-need-a-smack.html
Homophobia from Candidates
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/04/2...g-and-disturbing-homophobic-election-leaflet/
Lies about imaginary Influx of Romanians and Bulgarians
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22221841
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22238575
Refusing to discuss his policies and calling those who oppose him fascist scum;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22566183
Racism and ties to other racist groups
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...kip-candidate-suspended-over-Nazi-salute.html
Anti-Semitism
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/26/ukip-election-candidate-suspended-alleged-comments
A huge part of UKIP's appeal is that they play on people fears, they take advantage of the false information floating around about culture change, banning Christmas, the loss of pounds and ounces and tell people 'vote for us, we'll make change go away and with a nudge and a wink we'll make racism acceptable'.
http://blogs.reuters.com/mark-leonard/2013/05/09/uk-independence-party-renews-culture-wars/
I am perfectly capable of believing that people in possession of all the facts can come to a conclusion that I disagree with. However, I don't believe that the vast majority of UKIPs voters are in possession of the facts, all they read is anti-immigrant and anti-Europe propaganda that has been allowed to fester unchallenged in the tabloid press for many years.
For the sake of humanity, I can't believe that any properly informed person could ever endorse UKIP's nonsense.
https://www.facebook.com/KeepCalmBritain?fref=ts
Because it's perfectly reasonable for you to properly study UKIP's ideas and decide you're all for them, but not perfectly reasonable for me to do the same and conclude the opposite?
As for name calling, I'm not the one who accused people engaging in perfectly peaceful protest of foaming at the mouth mob mentality or implied they're guilty of anti- English hypocrisy.
It goes without saying, I think, that I am opposed to UKIP's official policies of leaving the EU, bringing back smoking in pubs, increasing defence spending 40%, barring same sex marriage, ending inheritance tax, ending national insurance, introducing a flat rate tax and reducing workers rights.
I'm sure you can support all of those things without being racist, discriminatory or homophobic. I'm sure.
But as with all parties, they are to be judged not by official manifestos but by the actions and words of their representatives. UKIP can keep claiming that they don't endorse the racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-Semitic things that their supporters say but a party is made up of its members, and when your members and representatives are repeatedly shown to be racist, sexist, homophobic and discriminatory then guess what that makes UKIP.
Sexism from Donor
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/468535/20130517/ukip-women-demetri-marchessini.htm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...stile-and-unmarried-mothers-need-a-smack.html
Homophobia from Candidates
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/04/2...g-and-disturbing-homophobic-election-leaflet/
Lies about imaginary Influx of Romanians and Bulgarians
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22221841
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22238575
Refusing to discuss his policies and calling those who oppose him fascist scum;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22566183
Racism and ties to other racist groups
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...kip-candidate-suspended-over-Nazi-salute.html
Anti-Semitism
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/26/ukip-election-candidate-suspended-alleged-comments
A huge part of UKIP's appeal is that they play on people fears, they take advantage of the false information floating around about culture change, banning Christmas, the loss of pounds and ounces and tell people 'vote for us, we'll make change go away and with a nudge and a wink we'll make racism acceptable'.
http://blogs.reuters.com/mark-leonard/2013/05/09/uk-independence-party-renews-culture-wars/
I am perfectly capable of believing that people in possession of all the facts can come to a conclusion that I disagree with. However, I don't believe that the vast majority of UKIPs voters are in possession of the facts, all they read is anti-immigrant and anti-Europe propaganda that has been allowed to fester unchallenged in the tabloid press for many years.
For the sake of humanity, I can't believe that any properly informed person could ever endorse UKIP's nonsense.
https://www.facebook.com/KeepCalmBritain?fref=ts
proactive
Enjoying a drop of red.
Didn't the vast majority of UKIP voters vote as a protest in the (mistaken) belief that UKIP would be like a breath of fresh air?
Farage has already shown his true colours by getting his snout straight in the trough of the EU and claiming the maximum he can for everything. He's just as bad as David Camoron, P.rick Clegg and Wallace.
Sadly, the true messiah of British politics is yet to make an appearance.
Glad to see you accept the fact that UKIP's policies aren't racist, discriminatory or xenophobic which is odds to your initial post.
I have to agree with you that there are a number of undesirables within UKIP but this is down to the nature of the rapid growth of the party and it's image of an anti-establishment party. I'm sure you could trawl the media and find undesirables in all parties.
Over the past 10 years there has become a detachment with the political class and the people, the politicians of all parties are like identikit models following the same career path of university, working within the party and then parachuted into consituencys. Indeed wasn't it George Galloway who said the parties are the 'Three Cheeks on the same Arse'. It is due to this detachment that people are asking 'Who is speaking for Us?' Nigel Farage has charisma and very good speaker and debater and has formed a connection with a large proportion of the electorate.
What you must ask is how has UKIP been able to have so much success and it's no good blaming the right wing press as traditional forms of media influence has disminished in the internet age with people forming opinions from various sources (It might be the case that the new technology favours the more nimble political parties/pressure groups)
David Cameron has taken a lot of stick on here and rightly so, but whenever I've asked if Miliband would make a Prime Minister I've only heard deafening silence. With limited options to vote for crap Leaders and disconnected Parties is it any wonder that people are searching for an alternative.
I have to agree with you that there are a number of undesirables within UKIP but this is down to the nature of the rapid growth of the party and it's image of an anti-establishment party. I'm sure you could trawl the media and find undesirables in all parties.
Over the past 10 years there has become a detachment with the political class and the people, the politicians of all parties are like identikit models following the same career path of university, working within the party and then parachuted into consituencys. Indeed wasn't it George Galloway who said the parties are the 'Three Cheeks on the same Arse'. It is due to this detachment that people are asking 'Who is speaking for Us?' Nigel Farage has charisma and very good speaker and debater and has formed a connection with a large proportion of the electorate.
What you must ask is how has UKIP been able to have so much success and it's no good blaming the right wing press as traditional forms of media influence has disminished in the internet age with people forming opinions from various sources (It might be the case that the new technology favours the more nimble political parties/pressure groups)
David Cameron has taken a lot of stick on here and rightly so, but whenever I've asked if Miliband would make a Prime Minister I've only heard deafening silence. With limited options to vote for crap Leaders and disconnected Parties is it any wonder that people are searching for an alternative.
proactive
Enjoying a drop of red.
Exactly. But Farage isn't the answer either.
Gramaisc
Forum O. G.
I recall a politician ( who looked quite like Charlie Chaplin ) and who had far more charisma than Nigel. He may also have been one of the most effective public speakers in history, although their relative debating prowess is something that I don't feel qualified to judge. He did, though, have a truly phenomenal connection with a large part of his electorate.
His policies, as actually put into action, resulted in considerable difficulties for several countries, not least of all his own - though it does seem to have recovered well now.
And I thought it was only us 'Little Englanders' who brought up the war!
Gramaisc
Forum O. G.
Just wondering if such an 'alternative leader' is what people might be after?
tek-monkey
wanna see my snake?
He certainly left his mark, more so than Blair or brown.
tek-monkey
wanna see my snake?
Who mentioned the war? I thought we were discussing politicians.
Why stop at comparing Farage to Hitler, how about Stalin, Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan, Attila the Hun...... come on I expected better from you, you'll be screaming 'Fascist Nazi Scum' with a Scottish accent next
Gramaisc
Forum O. G.
I'm not sure that any of them were particularly well-known known for their charisma or their skill at public speaking. I don't think that any of them relied, even initially, on being voted into positions of power.