How will you vote in the Staffordshire County Council elections 2013?

A

andy w

Well-Known Forumite
tek-monkey said:
Last time I looked UKIP favoured a flat tax rate of around 30%, is this still the case? If so I could never vote for them, even though they think it shouldn't be paid on minimum wage the difference to someone earning 20-40k will be huge. Only the very low earners or very high ones will benefit, I've had a drink so can't be bothered to work out the figures right now but I suspect you'd need to be on less than £15k or at least £45k to stand a chance of benefitting from this policy?
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Best of my knowledge they were proposing to scrap National Insurance which in effect is an 11% income tax so for many there would be no difference although it might affect over 65's who don't pay NI.
Saying all that Nigel Farage did say on Question Time that UKIP's tax policy was under review but his main thrust was that the tax and benefit regime in this country is far too complicated and needs simplifying
 
H

Hetairoi

Well-Known Forumite
ATJ said:
But as with all parties, they are to be judged not by official manifestos but by the actions and words of their representatives. UKIP can keep claiming that they don't endorse the racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-Semitic things that their supporters say but a party is made up of its members, and when your members and representatives are repeatedly shown to be racist, sexist, homophobic and discriminatory then guess what that makes UKIP.
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I disagree with you on this, a party should be judged by is policies and manifesto not on the opinions of some of it's member's.

There are members of every party that have views that are at odds with the official party line but that is not to say that the whole party is tarred with the same brush.
 
ATJ

ATJ

Well-Known Forumite
Hetairoi said:
I disagree with you on this, a party should be judged by is policies and manifesto not on the opinions of some of it's member's.

There are members of every party that have views that are at odds with the official party line but that is not to say that the whole party is tarred with the same brush.
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Manifestos are written to appeal to as many people as possible and then be ignored after elections. The only way to find out what a party really thinks is through the actions of its members. Sure, the odd mental member can be ignored (I recently read of a Tory who believes that disabled children should be drowned at birth to save the NHS money) but when all of the 'odd' members are spouting the same thing, well, if its not the party's real policy then you have to question how come they attract that kind of person. Repeatedly. And make them candidates.
 
ATJ

ATJ

Well-Known Forumite
andy w said:
Question- if I accused you of having a reputation of being a Fascist, how would you respond?
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I'd laugh, because it's patently untrue. I certainly wouldn't accuse whoever made the accusation of piousness or lying about their opinions to look good because it doesn't make sense.

I wasn't the person who made that accusation, but if being accused of fascism doesn't make you laugh because it's ridiculous, maybe you should start worrying.
 
A

andy w

Well-Known Forumite
ATJ said:
I'd laugh, because it's patently untrue. I certainly wouldn't accuse whoever made the accusation of piousness or lying about their opinions to look good because it doesn't make sense.

I wasn't the person who made that accusation, but if being accused of fascism doesn't make you laugh because it's ridiculous, maybe you should start worrying.
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I understand what you are saying but there is the train of thought that if you tell a lie enough times it becomes believable
 
Gramaisc

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
Withnail said:
I really don't think that is the case, i'm fairly sure she was a woman to begin with.

As i understand it, she did indeed rise to become an MEP, but was 'sacked' by UKIP for refusing to deal with some of their more unsavoury European partners whose views on homosexuality were at odds with her being openly gay. The fact that the party were not willing to stand by her can be seen as at least questionable. A court of law certainly agreed they had been discriminatory.
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Are we talking about Nikki Sinclaire? UKIP seem to have accidentally failed to defend that case - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12062884 - resulting an a decision in her favour by default.
 
H

Hetairoi

Well-Known Forumite
Withnail said:
Whilst establishing the truth of the matter, could you also question your man in the know on what relevance it might have?
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It has a lot of relevance to the original post.

The original poster was saying that UKIP were homophobic whilst the person who responded said that a party who promoted the un-named Euro-MP couldn't be because of this member.

Someone then questioned the facts quoted so this was an attempt to clarify the facts, that is all.

I was not party to the original discussion and just offered to try and find out who was right.

As it is whether this person has had a sex change or is just a lesbian I think that a party who promoted such a person to Party Secretary and a Euro-MP can't really be described as homophobic.
 
ATJ

ATJ

Well-Known Forumite
Withnail

Withnail

Well-Known Forumite
Hetairoi said:
It has a lot of relevance to the original post.

The original poster was saying that UKIP were homophobic whilst the person who responded said that a party who promoted the un-named Euro-MP couldn't be because of this member.
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Tbf, whether the member in question once had a member isn't massively relevant...
Someone then questioned the facts quoted so this was an attempt to clarify the facts, that is all.
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... but point taken, i wasn't meaning to have a go at you.
As it is whether this person has had a sex change or is just a lesbian I think that a party who promoted such a person to Party Secretary and a Euro-MP can't really be described as homophobic.
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Their subsequent treatment of her is, again as i understand it, rather questionable though - and there are many other instances, as quoted above, of party members having less than 'accommodating' views on the subject.
 
Gramaisc

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
Hetairoi said:
It has a lot of relevance to the original post.

The original poster was saying that UKIP were homophobic whilst the person who responded said that a party who promoted the un-named Euro-MP couldn't be because of this member.

Someone then questioned the facts quoted so this was an attempt to clarify the facts, that is all.

I was not party to the original discussion and just offered to try and find out who was right.

As it is whether this person has had a sex change or is just a lesbian I think that a party who promoted such a person to Party Secretary and a Euro-MP can't really be described as homophobic.
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At the risk of dragging up the war again, few people would regard the Nazis as gay-friendly and, yet, Hitler's original closest lieutenant, Ernst Röhm, was 'as bent as a nine bob note' and still rose to be the effective deputy leader - well, until Hitler had him killed in 1934, that is. You can never be sure of anybody, it seems.
 
H

Hetairoi

Well-Known Forumite
Gramaisc said:
At the risk of dragging up the war again, few people would regard the Nazis as gay-friendly and, yet, Hitler's original closest lieutenant, Ernst Röhm, was 'as bent as a nine bob note' and still rose to be the effective deputy leader - well, until Hitler had him killed in 1934, that is. You can never be sure of anybody, it seems.
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The difference is the Nazi's had an openly anti-gay policy whereas UKIP don't, that doesn't mean that there are no anti-gay members of UKIP just that the 'Party' isn't anti-gay!
 
H

Hetairoi

Well-Known Forumite
Withnail said:
Did you not vote for them then H?
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Yes I did, and I voted for the BNP at the last County Council elections four years ago!

That doesn't mean that I am a member or supporter of either, there are issues I strongly disagree with both parties.

That probably sounds a bit strange that I have voted for a party but do not count myself as a supporter!
 
ATJ

ATJ

Well-Known Forumite
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Spelunker

Spelunker

Well-Known Forumite
Withnail said:
It does a bit, yes. Isn't a vote for something almost the definition of support for it?
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Sounds like it.
UKIP is like a dog in a dress , it might be a nice dress but what's inside it is still a dog!
I agree that there are few others to vote for but can one honestly believe that Farage and his mates are any good .
I am all for a protest vote so what is wrong with the monster raving looney party !
There is little choice in what's available but that doesn't make it acceptable to elect xenophobic, racist, homophobes. Fair play to the people of Edinburgh for showing Farage the door .
 
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