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Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Tilly, Feb 13, 2020.
Oh, and, if you've not seen it yet - ammo for the meme war...
Yes, he who claimed the Grenfell Tower fire victims did not use “common sense” and leave the burning building
And the isolation with not getting out and about as normal can cause long term mental health problems in those showing no physical symptoms.
There now talk of 6 months of on off lockdowns restrictions. I think we have passed the point of where people need to take responsibility for themselves and choose the level of risk there willing to live with at what cost.
But We didn’t did we. At the point of lockdown, infection tracking had collapsed, we had no idea of the scale of infections, we had no nightingale hospitals our PPE supplies were ether faulty, out of date, insufficient or non-existent. Hospitals had already sent the old to die in care homes at the order of Cummings to free capacity, we didn’t even have enough testing capacity to check them before they left let alone the NHS staff on the front line of whom we already had 4300 vacancies not filled. Hospitals were already rationing critical care beds, oxygen and certain medicines.
And now to the present – I see you propose ‘rigorous infection control’ how do you propose we do this? We still have no testing capacity! We still have no track and trace!
I could've written the bloody app by now!
But that’s sort of the point isn’t it. You cannot choose what level of risk you are willing to take when a good chunk of that risk is based on the behaviour of others. If we had a society, like Sweden, where the majority of the people understand the concept of the ‘Common good’, and realise ‘what’s good for the hive is good for the bees’ it might work. But unfortunately, we have followed Thatchers ‘There is no such thing as society’ model where taking care of number 1 is the priority. ‘F*ck you I’ll do what I want’ is not the best method to beat a pandemic. Although, saying that, it seems to work for Cummings.
One has been running in the Northern Ireland section of the 'United' Kingdom for two months.
If we're all going to take responsibility for ourselves (and not anybody else?), then I look forward to seeing what adjustments people make to speed limits, drink driving standards, gun laws, etc.
Difference being they weren't designing it as a spying tool?
It's essentially based on, and, I believe, interoperable with, the one the Republic has had running for a good while* - Scotland was going to head along the same route, but I'm not sure what's happened about that. England and Wales seems determined to plough their own very shallow, but expensive, furrow.
* I think it was about the beginning of July?
I'm a firm believer people will act in the common good especially as risk increases take Sweden as risk increased people took greater and greater steps to protect themselves and others. Swedish government gave lots of advice and few mandatory rules and the people acted appropriately. In Q2 when the risk was highest people generally didn't socialise and kept away from others. As the risk reduced people began to do more again.
The virus spreads through contact with others the less contact you have with others the better you load the dice in your favour. There is a lot an individual can do to minimise risk.
Law and order has its place in a civil democratic society but "locking up" fit and healthy individuals who haven't committed a crime is a step too far.
Testing capacity and tracing is not needed for infection control but has its place in helping. operating theatres have had excellent infection control for decades. Basically everything outside is dirty and needs to be decontaminated before being allowed in combined with regular cleaning inside the protected zone. Not only does this protect against covid-19 but many other infections too.
I think you give the British public too much credit, I'd put money on 1 in 5 ignoring any guidance given.
Unfortunately, in the UK we confuse common sense with the common good. Take Cummings, he was faced with a virus spreading uncontrolled in London, his wife already had it and he suspected he had it too. He knew that the local hospital was already overwhelmed. He did the common sense thing and fled to a low risk area where he could, if needed , get treatment for him and his family. From an individualistic viewpoint it was the only logical thing to do. But from a ‘Common Good’ perspective it was the very worst thing you could do! Traveling to a virus free area with the virus! Minister after minister were rolled out to tell us that common sense overrides the common good!
In Sweden the discussion between what’s best for the individual and what is best for the Whole is well developed, ‘What’s best for the hive is best for the bees’ high investment in ‘public’ stuff has led to a high level of trust between public and public servant. In the UK we have a more ‘the monies mine’ mentality. I seriously though that the pandemic was bringing the UK together and a conversation was starting to happen but post Cummings that has evaporated. To expect people to sacrifice themselves for the common good whilst those in power even deny the concept exists is a big ask!
I admire your faith, but people here can't even leave a bog roll that they don't need on the shelf for somebody else.
It’s far more than 1 in 5 from my recent experiences.
The respect and social distancing during lockdown has virtually disappeared and certain irresponsible members of our UK community including this Forum and some of my friends think they have developed “superpowers” immunity and no longer give a shit.
Lockdown number 2 on its way anytime soon coming to a town near you!!!!
In the last twenty four hours, and I don't 'mingle' much, I have been told "masks reduce your immunity", "hand sanitiser is toxic", I've seen someone pretend to use the sanitiser, then handle goods, before putting them back on the shelf. I've seen people stalk back to their car in a most annoyed manner, when the three of them weren't allowed unmasked entry to a shop, to get the masks they had in the car anyway (the car was parked on double yellow lines on a bend at a junction, even though there was a legitimate space available, but that would have required a tiny bit of skill to get into), I've seen someone deliberately enter a shop via the exit lane, because it was more convenient for her, I've seen others fail to observe the simple one-way arrows on the floor.
I've only been to two places.
This can be done, but it requires people to actually do it. We have been in the 'bugger you' phase of sociological evolution for many decades now. Any significant minority that undermines the precautions will completely negate the actions of the 'correct' part of society.
We could 'relax' a lot more, if we really could rely on people to behave decently.
And I've heard someone complain about a load of illegal immigrants she'd seen, who were really the people who pick her bloody fruit and veg for her. But that's another story.
It's is if you drink it. But as we're not American that's not likely to happen.
I'm currently in Lincoln, they seem to be wearing masks but ignoring everything else. No distancing at all, people happily push past you.
Or from Stoke
I don't think it's a case of people thinking there immune it's people looking at the risk profile and deciding where they want to sit within the profile. If certain activities sit too high within the risk profile you should refrain from doing them. We could be stuck with this virus for several years yet and life has to go on.
The trouble with lockdowns is they cannot be kept up long term and as soon as they are relaxed cases surge back to there natural level. Distanced hygiene on the other hand is easier to keep up long term and can help greatly in slowing transmission through the population.
The fear now is our summer lockdown has pushed peak transmission into the winter period where healthcare system will be under most demand.
That would be fine if the bastards refusing to take basic measures didn't then go shopping alongside those trying to be careful.