Leave or Remain?

Withnail

Withnail

Well-Known Forumite
The interesting thing about the analogy with Henry VIII and the whole Reformation thing is that a line of confrontation on Continental Europe can be carried right on through from the 1530's to the 1940's.

Obviously there is an almost insane amount of whataboutery that can be applied to the intervening, but the overwhelming 'lesson' is to be careful for what one wishes.

Especially when promises are made that can't possibly be kept.

We are where we are.
 
shoes

shoes

Well-Known Forumite
tek-monkey said:
The Indians in my local shop commented during the last election that they'd never seen such a corrupt system of government.
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Short memories then. What about their country? Literally nothing works apart from the space program we paid for.
 
R

Roland

Well-Known Forumite
Withnail said:
'WW3' won't happen tomorrow, or even when (or if...) Article 50 is initiated. But remember, WWII was inconceivable in 1918, even though it was just a couple of decades away..
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No so, Marshal Foch the Supreme Allied Commander in WWI said about the defeat of Germeny in WWI 'This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years'
 
Gramaisc

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
Roland said:
No so, Marshal Foch the Supreme Allied Commander in WWI said about the defeat of Germeny in WWI 'This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years'
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He also said "Aeroplanes are interesting toys, but of no military value".
 
tek-monkey

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
shoes said:
Short memories then. What about their country? Literally nothing works apart from the space program we paid for.
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Apparently their corrupt officials at least admit they are corrupt, whereas here they just pretend everyone else is.
 
Noah

Noah

Well-Known Forumite
John Marwood said:
This bit was interesting.....

" Article 50 is initiated. But remember, WWII was inconceivable in 1918, even though it was just a couple of decades away."
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1919 cartoon on the Treaty of Versailles

ub29KPG.jpg
 
Noah

Noah

Well-Known Forumite
WW III - Are the post Brexit risk of war levels as high as Cuba, Able Archer or the Norwegian Missile Launch? Quite possibly not far off.
 
A

andy w

Well-Known Forumite
Withnail said:
I don't think anyone would suggest that the EU was anything even approaching an Eden, but our withdrawal will surely make the likelihood of more withdrawals much higher. This tends toward a return to fragmentary States with narrow self-interests. This has seldom been a recipe for peace and stability.
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But is the creation of a United States of Europe a step in the right direction for democracy and accountability?
The faultline running through the single currency is that so many disparate economies are sharing it. How can Germany and Greece share the same currency? What has the likes of Holland and Portugal got in common? The architects of the Grand European Project realised that a US of E and a single currency could not survive without each other and whilst the UK voting to leave has thrown a spanner in the works, further political economic and political union and sovereign powers diminished is still planned.
The European Ideal of a United Europe that is at peace and prospers together is very noble but the reality is that too many countries are caught in an economic straightjacket. The EU must realise One Size doesn't Fit All and allow member states to make decisions based on their specific needs and the democratic will of their electorate.
The EU can survive and prosper, but only by having a looser relationship between sovereign countries that trade and cooperate with each other but have sovereign powers.
 
A

andy w

Well-Known Forumite
But does the people of Europe want to be a single entity such as the USA with a European army, an elected President, a congress and a senate etc?
 
Gramaisc

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
andy w said:
But does the people of Europe want to be a single entity such as the USA with a European army, an elected President, a congress and a senate etc?
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If not, why do the Americans want it? If they do...

..most of whom are European in origin..
 
A

andy w

Well-Known Forumite
Whilst there is varying levels of kinship to their particular States, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of Americans see them themselves as Americans first and foremost (least we forget there is a common language in America and to the best of my knowledge there isn't translation within the senate/congress!)
I wonder if Germans, French, Irish etc. see themselves as Europeans first and foremost and would accept the abandonment of their Nations? Somehow I doubt it.
 
Gramaisc

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
So, if mainland Europeans spoke English*, which most of the ones that I've ever met do, it would be OK?

*Or some other common language - Latin?

There are a great many languages available in the USA, probably more then in the EU - Navajo came in quite handy in WW2 to confuse the Japanese.

As for the European Army thing, what's the difference between that and NATO, apart from the USA and Canada not being in it? And several EU members will not take part in that sort of thing, should it involve the sort of adventurism that has gone on with certain countries lately.
 
Withnail

Withnail

Well-Known Forumite
Roland said:
No so, Marshal Foch the Supreme Allied Commander in WWI said about the defeat of Germeny in WWI 'This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years'
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I'd hazard a guess that he didn't say that in 1918. By 1919, with a Treaty in place that pleased pretty much no one, it became a lot more imaginable.

With such stalwarts in the Art of Diplomacy as Davis and Johnson (and with the cool heads of the likes of our own dear Cash offering calm assistance in the background) at the 'treaty table' this time around, we can all feel confident that a much more amicable arrangement will be reached regards Brexit.
 
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