Leave or Remain?

Gramaisc

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
Withnail said:
I'd hazard a guess that he didn't say that in 1918. By 1919, with a Treaty in place that pleased pretty much no one, it became a lot more imaginable.

With such stalwarts in the Art of Diplomacy as Davis and Johnson (and with the cool heads of the likes of our own dear Cash offering calm assistance in the background) at the 'treaty table' this time around, we can all feel confident that a much more amicable arrangement will be reached regards Brexit.
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I have seen it alleged that he said it in 1920, but there seems to be little real, concrete evidence of that, or that he really said it, at all.
 
A

andy w

Well-Known Forumite
Gramaisc said:
As for the European Army thing, what's the difference between that and NATO, apart from the USA and Canada not being in it? And several EU members will not take part in that sort of thing, should it involve the sort of adventurism that has gone on with certain countries lately.
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Being brutally honest, who is the biggest contributor to Nato and who has the most say? Where would the creation of a European Army leave Nato and how would the relationship between the USA and Europe change?
Yes the creation of Nato was in response to the post WW2 situation and events have moved on since then but the creation of a European Army could detach America and leave Europe (who spends a much lower amount of GDP on defence than America) exposed to Russia.
 
Withnail

Withnail

Well-Known Forumite
andy w said:
But does the people of Europe want to be a single entity such as the USA ..?
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That's such an interesting question that i had to have a look.

From this , which is from 2012/13, it would appear that 44% think Yes, 35% think No, and 21% Don't Know.

Some very interesting regional variation in the responses.
 
Gramaisc

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
andy w said:
Being brutally honest, who is the biggest contributor to Nato and who has the most say? Where would the creation of a European Army leave Nato and how would the relationship between the USA and Europe change?
Yes the creation of Nato was in response to the post WW2 situation and events have moved on since then but the creation of a European Army could detach America and leave Europe (who spends a much lower amount of GDP on defence than America) exposed to Russia.
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It is quite feasible to be a member of two, or more, military alliances - the UK and Turkey were both members of NATO and CENTO at the same time.

Most EU members take part in UN military operations, whether they are in NATO or not.

Why not become part of the USA? The English-speaking qualification is met - to a degree.
 
A

andy w

Well-Known Forumite
Also who would an European Army be accountable to? I'm not 100% certain, so correct me if I'm wrong but a Nation's armed forces are under the control of that Nation even if they are cooperating as a joint force. Would that be the case in a European Army? If indeed a US of Europe was created would that army be under the control of a European President and Brussels just like the situation in America?
 
Gramaisc

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
andy w said:
Also who would an European Army be accountable to? I'm not 100% certain, so correct me if I'm wrong but a Nation's armed forces are under the control of that Nation even if they are cooperating as a joint force. Would that be the case in a European Army? If indeed a US of Europe was created would that army be under the control of a European President and Brussels just like the situation in America?
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I have no idea of any answers to any of that, as I am not aware that a "European Army" is even on the agenda at all. As stated above, several countries are not going to be part of that sort of thing.

Is a US state in a position to exclude itself from US military operations?

In a converse question, who is NATO responsible to?
 
A

andy w

Well-Known Forumite
Gramaisc said:
Why not become part of the USA?
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Yet whilst have been able to trade, cooperate and form a political alliance with America without feeling the need to go into political and economic union with it proves that we do not submerge ourselves in a Superstate to achieve such things.
 
Gramaisc

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
andy w said:
Yet whilst have been able to trade, cooperate and form a political alliance with America without feeling the need to go into political and economic union with it proves that we do not submerge ourselves in a Superstate to achieve such things.
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California is just behind the UK, as the world's sixth largest economy, should they leave the USA and stop submerging themselves in an existing superstate? They could trade, cooperate and retain a political alliance with the other 49, without needing to stay in a political and economic union with them.
 
John Marwood

John Marwood

I ♥ cryptic crosswords
Gramaisc said:
California is just behind the UK, as the world's sixth largest economy, should they leave the USA and stop submerging themselves in an existing superstate? They could trade, cooperate and retain a political alliance with the other 49, without needing to stay in a political and economic union with them.
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Sutton Coldfield is in fact a bigger economy than Malta

But only has one tank
 
proactive

proactive

Enjoying a drop of red.
Gramaisc said:
Does Malta have any tanks? I remember when they had three Gladiators.
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The only Gladiators I've seen in Sutton Coldfield are these.

gay-pride_Roma_Marino.jpg


Scary stuff...
 
Noah

Noah

Well-Known Forumite
Gramaisc said:
I have no idea of any answers to any of that, as I am not aware that a "European Army" is even on the agenda at all. As stated above, several countries are not going to be part of that sort of thing ...
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As far as I am aware there has never been any suggestion of a "European Army", it was just another untrue Brexit scare story. There has been talk about closer co-operation between national armies within Europe but the armies would always have been under the control of their own governments.
 
Gramaisc

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
The majority of the EU is already militarily integrated via NATO.

Would people object to the non-NATO EU members joining NATO?

There's only Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta & Sweden missing from the existing military alliance.
 
basil

basil

don't mention the blinds
Not sure that armies was a major vote gatherer back in June,

Xenophobia, little Englander,conned, maybe....
 
1JKz

1JKz

Well-Known Forumite
Stand up, get out, no excuse
No excuse, no excuse
What's that coming over the hill
Is it a monster?
...is it a monnnnsteeeeeeeer?
 
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