the Lunar Scorpion and her ongoing struggle

[tek-monkey]

Actually, now I read more, its doomed. It can only work in a finite sense, it cannot grow. The idea of "a family inhabiting a house which affords them just enough space... considered necessary for that number of people" is great, when space to expand is infinite and the person deciding what actually amounts to 'just enough space' is fair. Then comes "the peasant who is in possession of just the amount of land he can cultivate", which depends vastly on how much he can be arsed to work, the quality of the soil, irrigation, the distance from his house (as travelling to/from will affect amount of work able to do).

Face it, its all bullshit and can't work. At least to my capitalist mind anyway, if you can explain how these matters will not be an issue I shall dig further. If not, I'll leave it as the pipe dream it appears to be.

EDIT: I have actually earnt £30 while looking this shit up, yay capitalism!

 

[Gramaisc]

I may well take your own stance, and do nothing unless I decide I want to that day. Will you work for me, make me food, provide me with clothes and shelter, while I sit scratching my arse and staring at the sun? If so, then indeed you are right and the system rocks.

Is this not the basis of the existing parliamentary expenses system?

There may be land in Scotland that is 'unused', but somebody still owns it.

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

FFS, I think you're missing the point - there is no 'system' to be worked, there are no earnings and there is no ownership of land!

Work THIS system, if you don't like your situation then change it. Get some like minded people together, earn some money and buy some land. Once the land is yours, you can do as you please. Well, within reason, but I think you are being very conceited expecting the entire country to change to suit your wishes. This can only happen when a majority wants it, or the majority are so apathetic that they just let things happen. And I'm glad.

The majority don't want it because they have been conditioned into Capitalism. I really, really struggle to see why any free-thinking person wouldn't want a society where everyone's needs are met - unless they are evil bastards who like to see people suffering (or even worse, brush it under the carpet so that they don't see it).

Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

So which is this? If you want something, you look at where you are and where you want to be. Break down that journey into steps, and make the first one. If you can find no path then may the lord grant you serenity, because there isn't a lot else you can do but get on with life.

Your point is? You think I haven't got the very same quote on my wall (well, I haven't got it up at the moment but that's the plan when I get my own place)?

Possibly because you skipped to the 'Criticisms' section, or you just didn't read it properly at all...

Nope, I just can't see it working.

Fine, so why can't you just agree to disagree and BOG OFF...

... such as oil.

Well at some point we're going to have to learn to live without it anyway, as it's running out rather quickly.

So now you have told me how it can "never" work and spat your miserable cynicism at me, do you think you can drop the fooking subject? You will clearly don't understand the philosophical basis of it so why are you WASTING so much of your time and effort trying to convince me that me ideals are worthless and I should subscribe to your way, when it just makes me even more resentful and less likely to?

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

Actually, now I read more, its doomed. It can only work in a finite sense, it cannot grow. The idea of "a family inhabiting a house which affords them just enough space... considered necessary for that number of people" is great, when space to expand is infinite ...

Why would you need space to expand, when you have enough space?

and the person deciding what actually amounts to 'just enough space' is fair. Then comes "the peasant who is in possession of just the amount of land he can cultivate", which depends vastly on how much he can be arsed to work, the quality of the soil, irrigation, the distance from his house (as travelling to/from will affect amount of work able to do).

The distance from his OR HER house would probably be minimal, as this would be organised in communities and the land would likely be open for use by others all working together.

Face it, its all bullshit and can't work. At least to my capitalist mind anyway ...

Yes, we've established that you think it's bullshit and no, I'm not about to agree with you on this - not even within my lifetime.

... if you can explain how these matters will not be an issue I shall dig further.

You mind find this, this and this useful.

 

[tek-monkey]

The majority don't want it because they have been conditioned into Capitalism. I really, really struggle to see why any free-thinking person wouldn't want a society where everyone's needs are met - unless they are evil bastards who like to see people suffering (or even worse, brush it under the carpet so that they don't see it).

So, like I said, why don't they work the current system to get what they want, then opt out? Surely a few years of actual work is better than a lifetime of wishing?

Your point is? You think I haven't got the very same quote on my wall (well, I haven't got it up at the moment but that's the plan when I get my own place)?

My point is, do something about it. If you actually believe its something that can work, go for it. Very few people get what they want by sitting by and wishing. I actually believe a semi workable model could exist, although they'd have to trade somehow with the 'outside world' if only for medication and other such trappings of life unlikely to be made in a field. I cannot believe in the idea that one need not trade the strength of his arm for the ability to exist, because that involves using somebody elses arm to do it for you (i.e. workers, that which they want to abolish. Or slaves I suppose if money does not exist). I do however believe that a number of likeminded people could help sustain each other, as long as they all have the strength of the community at heart. I do not believe this is possible in the general community, due to apathy/laziness/greed inherent in a lot of the population.

Fine, so why can't you just agree to disagree and BOG OFF...

Because I am curious, and it was you who wants to live in this utopian society so mentioned it in the first place. Just because I am part of the evil capitalist machine does necessarily mean I think it is the RIGHT system - its just the system that seems most likely to work to me. I'm all for new ideas, but they need thinking through first. If I thought this was a sustainable model I'd actually see if it was possible to set something up, I ust can't see it working at present though.

Well at some point we're going to have to learn to live without it anyway, as it's running out rather quickly.

Yes, but we have a period of readjustment. We still have it now, and can gradually move to something else. Despite its pitfalls nuclear seems the way to go, until we can get more effective wind farms anyway. The problem with 'natural' power is that its not consistant, we still need 'regular' power to back it up with. Hopefully this is something we can get away from.

So now you have told me how it can "never" work and spat your miserable cynicism at me, do you think you can drop the fooking subject? You will clearly don't understand the philosophical basis of it so why are you WASTING so much of your time and effort trying to convince me that me ideals are worthless and I should subscribe to your way, when it just makes me even more resentful and less likely to?

Actually I can see exactly why in theory it is so attractive, I am just having trouble with seeing how it could work in the real world. The thing is though, I AM interested. Are you kidding me, a world without money where everyone gets what they want, and doesn't have to work to get it? You're talking Star Trek FFS, it'd be ace! I just don't see who does the work, if we don't have to? Someone needs to, as technology is not there yet to replace our efforts. If we cut back the UK population to maybe 5% of what it currently is, we could all live in little villages again surrounded by small holdings. Where do the other 95% of the UK population go though? This is their home after all.

Why would you need space to expand, when you have enough space?

Space is finite, people breed. Especially people who can't use any form of contraception other than natural, as they are self sufficient so can't go buying in tablets or condoms. The current UK population could not survive if we stopped buying in food and switched to small scale farming. We'd need less people or more land.

The distance from his OR HER house would probably be minimal, as this would be organised in communities and the land would likely be open for use by others all working together.

Not once they start breeding, as space is finite. Plus not all land is farmable, hence why historically only land that was fertile was used for human encampments. Its only since we have been able to buy in what we need, that we have inhabited those areas.

You mind find this, this and this useful.

Will look later, I'm at my other job now. Although I'm still getting paid to write this, so its all good

 

[shoes]

Ah holy shizzle! I can't believe this is still going on. Have just had a brief scan through the recent posts and from what I can see LS still doesn't understand why we get so irritated at having to support her.

'Work if you want to, don't if you don't want to, but if you do choose to work then be aware you'll have to support those who don't and you don't have a choice'. THAT is the system which needs to be shunned, not capitalism.

Everyone has agreed you're an intelligent person who can put your argument forward but I'm wondering if you are actually just a very articulate 'tard. Sure seems that way.

 

[tek-monkey]

Ah holy shizzle! I can't believe this is still going on. Have just had a brief scan through the recent posts and from what I can see LS still doesn't understand why we get so irritated at having to support her.

Nah, I'm past that. I want to know why those like her will support her, when most of them are also probably on benefits. They are likely to be if they share her principles, as they refuse to work unless its something they fancy at the time - I'd never employ someone like that!

'Work if you want to, don't if you don't want to, but if you do choose to work then be aware you'll have to support those who don't and you don't have a choice'. THAT is the system which needs to be shunned, not capitalism.

The problem is that its hard to distinguish between those who can't get a job (who I am happy to support, who knows when it could happen to you), and those who won't get a job (who I am not). As LS herself has said

I look in a couple of papers, look at a couple of websites and along with my voluntary work and some of my appointments I fulfil the requirement to take three steps to seek employment every week. It's less hassle than getting sicknotes and then after about three months having to fill in some stupid long form and then going for a "medical assessment" with some random doctor who is probably a GP who couldn't hack it.

They just need to fulfill the criteria, and they get their dole. Just saying they've looked is the easiest option, results in no questions unlike a sick note and you can go merrily on your way. The one time I was unemployed the guy couldn't be bothered to ask if I'd been looking for work, because he said I'd say yes regardless so there was no point.

The problem is, honest people also look on websites and in papers. How do they prove they did, and are not just lying, when the guy asking you doesn't give a toss anyway? The system does need a huge shakeup, but it needs to start with how it monitors job seekers before anything monetary can be stopped. Otherwise you risk harming those that really need the system, the ones it was put in place for. And TBH the benefits system is essential for a number of people, I know our family couldn't have lived without the council accomodation when my dad buggered off. Thats why I don't mind giving, because I've also taken (albeit mainly when I was a kid so had no choice).

 

[cookie_monster]

Thats why I don't mind giving, because I've also taken (albeit mainly when I was a kid so had no choice).

alternatively, as a child, how else would you have survived?

theres only so much cash you can earn on a paper round when youre not of age to contribute more fully to your household.


x

 

[db]

i don't know why you lot bother.. you've as much chance of convincing lunar to see sense as she has of signing you up to the communist party lol..

and that's not a dig at you, lunar - i'm just saying that you're all from different ends of the political/social-belief spectrum, and you all believe in what you're saying (right or wrong) so the argument is futile!

that being said, there's no point having a discussion forum with no discussion, so.. erm.. as you were! lol

 

[shoes]

Lol nicely rounded off the DB!

I agree that we are all of different opinions at various points on the political spectrum, but you have to take common sense into consideration. Capitalism isn't perfect, far from it, however it makes sense and if you cannot see that it makes sense you are an idiot. In the same way communism makes sense, although in a perfect world where everyone would be happy being equal (although no doubt some more equal that others). However if you cannot see the senselessness in only some people should work, based on choice, and they should have to support those who choose not to work then again you're an idiot. Sorry LS but there's sensible opinion and mindless want and you appear to be of the latter persuasion.

 

[tek-monkey]

i don't know why you lot bother.. you've as much chance of convincing lunar to see sense as she has of signing you up to the communist party lol..

I gave up that long ago, this is actually something interesting. A Star Tek like existence here on earth, where everybody wants for nothing. The idea is great, I'm just trying to work out how it could really happen. The problem is a lack of working models, so its hard to comprehend. Sure we have communism, but they're definately not all equal!

I suppose its like religion. Some need proof to believe, some see belief as proof. I'm the former, until I see a working model of something or I can see how it works in principal I can't believe in it. There appears to be a lot of people who thing this system can work, going back through the years, but none have ever got anywhere. For people to still believe it can work there must be some principal I'm missing, or they're all a bunch of loons.

 

[henryscat]

One point on capitalism. If it works, how come the poor in Russia are now a lot lot worse off than they've ever been.......?

 

[Sofa]

there's no point having a discussion forum with no discussion, so.. erm.. as you were! lol

Yes, this is a forum! Let's discuss! Let's discuss how some people may appear purposely rude and insensitive to, and ignorant and intolerant of others with a slightly left-wing or alternative view to the one that has the urgent requirement of Stafford to have a Burger King as its central tenet.

 

[tek-monkey]

there's no point having a discussion forum with no discussion, so.. erm.. as you were! lol

Yes, this is a forum! Let's discuss! Let's discuss how some people may appear purposely rude and insensitive to, and ignorant and intolerant of others with a slightly left-wing or alternative view to the one that has the urgent requirement of Stafford to have a Burger King as its central tenet.

I thought we were still discussing communism

Do commies have burger kings? What about a Nandos? Mmm, Nandos

 

[Gramaisc]

Do commies have burger kings?

Can't find one, but there's a Pizzeria in Pyongyang.

 

[Alan B'Stard]

Do commies have burger kings?

Can't find one, but there's a Pizzeria in Pyongyang.

Do they do them nuke grilled?

 

[Gramaisc]

Do commies have burger kings?

Can't find one, but there's a Pizzeria in Pyongyang.

Do they do them nuke grilled?

I haven't had their leaflet through my door so far. I suspect that it is Eat-In only, apparently they have no delivery system - yet.

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

The majority don't want it because they have been conditioned into Capitalism. I really, really struggle to see why any free-thinking person wouldn't want a society where everyone's needs are met - unless they are evil bastards who like to see people suffering (or even worse, brush it under the carpet so that they don't see it).

So, like I said, why don't they work the current system to get what they want, then opt out? ...

I didn't "opt in" in the first place, and I don't generally just blindly follow something because it is the done thing.

I can't be bothered to read the rest so I'll leave this as my final comment:

NO, I WON'T GET A FOOKING JOB JUST BECAUSE YOU TELL ME TO.

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

Lol nicely rounded off the DB!

I agree that we are all of different opinions at various points on the political spectrum, but you have to take common sense into consideration. Capitalism isn't perfect, far from it, however it makes sense and if you cannot see that it makes sense you are an idiot. In the same way communism makes sense, although in a perfect world where everyone would be happy being equal (although no doubt some more equal that others). However if you cannot see the senselessness in only some people should work, based on choice, and they should have to support those who choose not to work then again you're an idiot. Sorry LS but there's sensible opinion and mindless want and you appear to be of the latter persuasion.

Then clearly I am an idiot of the highest order. =D

 

[Admin]

If nothing else, no-one can accuse Lunar of not sticking to her guns!

Even if people disagree with your viewpoint, Lunar, I think they would love to see the true leaders of the world demonstrate your moxie