The moral argument of eating meat & dairy

[henryscat]

(Edit: @tekmonkey) I may have considered answering one of those questions if the other wasn't so inane. If you'd care to review the thread I think you'll find you have more unanswered questions, not me.

 

[Benllech]

I eat pork, lamb, chicken etc but if I had to kill the animals myself I would become a vegitarian

 

[Withnail]

Eating the Cabin Boy I always thought this was an interesting dilemma...
What would a vegetarian do in such circumstances?

Come up with a glib post and avoid the question

I like the word 'glib' too.

I'm interested to know what question is being posed here that demands a 'serious' answer? Are we to extend this logic to allow for the the moral acceptance of cannibalism?

My Attorney was once taught that if you are confronted by guard dogs intent on causing you harm, the best thing to do is apply as much padding to your arm as is available, offer your arm to the dog and when the hound has locked on, drive your thumb through it's eye socket into it's brain to 'neutralise' it.

It's always good to have some idea of what one should do in any kind of extreme situation one might encounter, and as you can see this particular 'survival' scenario is one that i took to heart.

I'd like to think i could apply this second hand knowledge in extremis, ie if i was attacked by a rabid dog-beast for some reason or another. I do not, however, think it reasonable to jump upon the next dog i see and ram my thumb into it's brain, regardless of the dog's intentions to my person. That would be plain rude.

 

[tek-monkey]

That is actually rather irrelevant to what I said - the point I was making is about the behaviour of people and some not having ethical problems doing things that are obviously harmful.

I understand that, but we have a legal system to deal with those people. Killing animals for food is not illegal, instead it is regulated and taxed like most things in life. It is socially acceptable, I guess is what I'm trying to say, whereas rape and assault are not and attract custodial sentences. Now if you want to debate why things are legal when others aren't I suspect thats a whole new thread, and one where I'd actually be saying that some legal/illegal things are completely in the wrong bracket, but that isn't what this thread is for.

 

[tek-monkey]

(Edit: @tekmonkey) I may have considered answering one of those questions if the other wasn't so inane. If you'd care to review the thread I think you'll find you have more unanswered questions, not me.

I'm not sure which is inane TBH, killing animals to feed to other animals must be seen as bad surely? Even keeping pets is wrong really, its not a natural environment for them. The fact that they are domesticated now means nothing, because so are cows and pigs. How many livestock animals would be saved from the slaughterhouse if we banned keeping cats and dogs?

And supporting companies that make profits from killing animals would also be bad, especially as its the supermarkets demanding such cheap meat that makes the welfare so bad. When a farmer only gets a few pence a chicken its hard for them to care, so supporting any supermarket must harm animals? You could choose places that stick to better welfare standards, like lidl apparently do, but then that means you take the welfare standards as acceptable so why moan about people eating the stuff?

Feel free to point out the ones I missed though, if you choose to answer these.

EDIT: Are there ethical pension companies? Any banks that only invest in vegan activities? How is it possible to live a life that truly doesn't harm animals? Can you get synthetic doc martins?

 

[Gramaisc]

Even keeping pets is wrong really, its not a natural environment for them.

I'm reminded of Frankie Boyle's observation on pet-owners - "Basically, they're just admitting that they can't find friendship amongst their own species.."

Always makes me laugh - but it's a double-edged observation, if you dwell on it...

Are there ethical pension companies? Any banks that only invest in vegan activities? How is it possible to live a life that truly doesn't harm animals? Can you get synthetic doc martins?

The Co-op Bank makes a point of having an 'Ethical Policy' - http://www.co-operativeinvestments....age/Investments-UnitTrustsAndISAs?WT.svl=copy - but I'm not sure if veggieness is central to it, more about arms and stuff, although I seem to remember animal testing getting the thumbs-down.

 

[andy w]

Some people have no ethical problems with raping their wives or beating the shit out of small children. It doesn't make it alright...

I have the utmost respect with the views of vegans/veggies and they make some very valid points to follow their diets but stupid comparrisons with meat eaters and rapists and child abusers is offensive and wrong headed. I don't know you( and coming out with rubbish like that I don't think I want to) and don't want to prejudge you but comments like that lose all your credibility and does nothing for cause of vegan/veggitarism

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

I have the utmost respect with the views of vegans/veggies and they make some very valid points to follow their diets but stupid comparrisons with meat eaters and rapists and child abusers is offensive and wrong headed. I don't know you( and coming out with rubbish like that I don't think I want to) and don't want to prejudge you but comments like that lose all your credibility and does nothing for cause of vegan/veggitarism

When did I say meat eaters are like rapists or child abusers? Did you even read my post about the point I was making?! Don't get offended because you made a wrong assumption... *mutters insult under breath*

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

Can you get synthetic doc martins?

I'm not sure, but I know you can get Vegan New Rocks!

 

[tek-monkey]

I'm not sure, but I know you can get Vegan New Rocks!

Really? Thats cool, guessing its a form of plastic? Considering their market thats gotta be a pretty clever move, I have no statistics to back me up but am sure I knew more rockers who were veggies/vegans than in my current circle of 'normals'!

 

[Gramaisc]

Can you get synthetic doc martins?

Yes.

 

[flossietoo]

There is a material called, I think, 'pleather' which is used in some increasingly good vegetarian-friendly shoes. Unfortunately vegan shoes tend to be horribly expensive. I've had some by Beyond Skin in the past but only by holding my nerve until the last online reductions.

 

[henryscat]

I understand that, but we have a legal system to deal with those people. Killing animals for food is not illegal, instead it is regulated and taxed like most things in life. It is socially acceptable, I guess is what I'm trying to say, whereas rape and assault are not and attract custodial sentences..

Whether something is legal or illegal doesn't equate to whether it is ethical or not.

 

[henryscat]

especially as its the supermarkets demanding such cheap meat that makes the welfare so bad. When a farmer only gets a few pence a chicken its hard for them to care, so supporting any supermarket must harm animals?

It is not the supermarkets demanding cheap meat, it is consumers. Consumers put their apparently inalieable right to cheap meat before any ethical consideration and so that's what the supermarkets do. If people ceased buying it, supermarkets would cease selling it. Having said that, people are also fantastically ignorant about the realities of animal welfare in intensive farming. In general, supermarkets do not cross subsidise so if I go in and buy washing powder I hardly think that is adding to factory farming is it? But on the other other hand supermarkets aren't exactly beacons of best practice when it comes to ethical considerations in general.

EDIT: Are there ethical pension companies? Any banks that only invest in vegan activities? How is it possible to live a life that truly doesn't harm animals? Can you get synthetic doc martins?

Why do you come out with all these questions that you could actually answer for yourself quite easily with the aid of a search engine of your choice? Then having done that perhaps you would have a useful basis to form a meaningful discussion...

On the middle question, you can certainly minimise it and use of animals for food is the biggest cause of suffering to animals, followed by their use in "research".

 

[henryscat]

I have the utmost respect with the views of vegans/veggies and they make some very valid points to follow their diets but stupid comparrisons with meat eaters and rapists and child abusers is offensive and wrong headed. I don't know you( and coming out with rubbish like that I don't think I want to) and don't want to prejudge you but comments like that lose all your credibility and does nothing for cause of vegan/veggitarism

That isn't the comparison that is being made. That is the comparison you have decided to read because the true meaning questions your dietary choices... In other words if people applied moral beliefs consistently then they would quickly realise that eating animals doesn't compute. Because it doesn't compute, people's brains actively avoid having to contend with that dissonance.

I'm going to mention Peter Singer again. Those of you who eat meat - have a read of his article http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/1979----.htm. Then... if you disagree with his conclusions, then on what basis...?

 

[henryscat]

There is a material called, I think, 'pleather' which is used in some increasingly good vegetarian-friendly shoes. Unfortunately vegan shoes tend to be horribly expensive. I've had some by Beyond Skin in the past but only by holding my nerve until the last online reductions.

On the flip side, although my veggie doc martens were more expensive than leather ones (though not outrageously more expensive), they have lasted way longer than equivalent leather ones that I had before being vegan. I've ordered stuff from Vegetarian Shoes in Brighton and they seem pretty good. Also have some of their walking boots which although expensive seem comparable in price to leather ones of equivalent quality.

 

[flossietoo]

On the flip side, although my veggie doc martens were more expensive than leather ones (though not outrageously more expensive), they have lasted way longer than equivalent leather ones that I had before being vegan. I've ordered stuff from Vegetarian Shoes in Brighton and they seem pretty good. Also have some of their walking boots which although expensive seem comparable in price to leather ones of equivalent quality.

I didn't realise you could get walking boots - are they comfortable over decent distances? Waterproof? Can your feet do what is euphamistically called breathing in them? If so, I might check them out...

 

[Gramaisc]

Somewhere, I still have some synthetic leather shoes from the '70s, they were made from something called Nu-Hide, or something like that, and they weren't actually too bad, so I imagine that, thirty years on, things will have improved even further. There's plenty of Gore-Tex-type 'fabric' walking boots about that may not be deliberately veggie, but won't have any animal content..

 

[flossietoo]

It is not the supermarkets demanding cheap meat, it is consumers. Consumers put their apparently inalieable right to cheap meat before any ethical consideration and so that's what the supermarkets do. If people ceased buying it, supermarkets would cease selling it. Having said that, people are also fantastically ignorant about the realities of animal welfare in intensive farming. In general, supermarkets do not cross subsidise so if I go in and buy washing powder I hardly think that is adding to factory farming is it? But on the other other hand supermarkets aren't exactly beacons of best practice when it comes to ethical considerations in general.

I'd have to stand up for Booths supermarket. They operate in the North and around the Lake District. Some years ago I supplied them as a small food producer. Their head buyer came out to visit me to check the ethical/welfare standards were as I described. He then took issue with the unit cost price I'd quoted them, not because he thought it was too high but because he was concerned that there was insufficient profit in there for me. In a deeply incongruous conversation, the supermarket buyer sat at our kitchen table, using charts and graphs to try to convince me to raise my price!

He said that their customers care about the production standards of products and would often demand to know more from staff in the stores. He was confident that they would pay a premium for high welfare products from me and he was right - I couldn't come anywhere near meeting demand.

Booths were supportive of a small producer, conscientious about welfare and responsive to their customers. So to be fair, I'd say that they pretty much are a beacon of best practice.

 

[andy w]

When did I say meat eaters are like rapists or child abusers? Did you even read my post about the point I was making?! Don't get offended because you made a wrong assumption... *mutters insult under breath*

So why bring these crimes up in ths discussion?