The moral argument of eating meat & dairy

[henryscat]

I didn't realise you could get walking boots - are they comfortable over decent distances? Waterproof? Can your feet do what is euphamistically called breathing in them? If so, I might check them out...

Mine are the Veggie Trekkers (though think I have Mk3 but not sure what's changed!)

http://www.vegetarian-shoes.co.uk/hiking_boots_-_safety_boots/10032_0c.html

There's a couple of others on there.

They've been really good. Ordered a size larger than me normal shoe size and that seems to work well with insoles and thick socks. Never ever had any blisters walking in them (even first time I used them). I've never had wet feet, though I do bung waterproof stuff on them from time to time. Last used to walk 30 miles in Wales over Easter!

 

[henryscat]

I'd have to stand up for Booths supermarket. They operate in the North and around the Lake District. Some years ago I supplied them as a small food producer. Their head buyer came out to visit me to check the ethical/welfare standards were as I described. He then took issue with the unit cost price I'd quoted them, not because he thought it was too high but because he was concerned that there was insufficient profit in there for me. In a deeply incongruous conversation, the supermarket buyer sat at our kitchen table, using charts and graphs to try to convince me to raise my price!

He said that their customers care about the production standards of products and would often demand to know more from staff in the stores. He was confident that they would pay a premium for high welfare products from me and he was right - I couldn't come anywhere near meeting demand.

Booths were supportive of a small producer, conscientious about welfare and responsive to their customers. So to be fair, I'd say that they pretty much are a beacon of best practice.

Fair comment... I probably should have narrowed it down to the likes of Tesco and Asda who definitely have fewer scruples. The Co-op and Waitrose tend to come out not too badly in terms of their standards too I guess. I went in Booths in Keswick a while back and have never seen such an immense selection of beer in a supermarket...!

 

[henryscat]

So why bring these crimes up in ths discussion?

http://www.staffordforum.com/xf/ind...of-eating-meat-dairy.8365/page-14#post-150518

Why is mention of serious crimes in the context of this discussion not warranted?

 

[Withnail]

Not only that, but apparently an entirely inconsequential example of eating a cabin boy in an extreme survival situation should be considered not only evidence for the defence, but necessary of defence by the prosecution.

Is only one side granted the luxury of analogy?

 

[andy w]

Not only that, but apparently an entirely inconsequential example of eating a cabin boy in an extreme survival situation should be considered not only evidence for the defence, but necessary of defence by the prosecution.

Is only one side granted the luxury of analogy?

Point taken but I'm sure the analogy of eating a cabin boy is more hypothetical than the all to often instaces of rape and child abuse and I still think using these subjects devalue the arguments for veganism.
By the way I thought the cabin boy sceniro a very weak argument as the vast majority of meat eaters would not turn to cannalibism( but then again until you are faced with that situation, such as the rugby team who crashed in the Andes , who knows and that would be the same for all of us whatever diet we followed).

 

[Withnail]

I'd have ate him without question - but that's (not) just me.

 

[shoes]

Yeah, but when all is said and done, you can't beat a bacon sandwich.

Especially when the butcher puts it in a plastic bag for you to take home

 

[henryscat]

Point taken but I'm sure the analogy of eating a cabin boy is more hypothetical than the all to often instaces of rape and child abuse and I still think using these subjects devalue the arguments for veganism.

What goes on in the name of people eating meat and dairy is pretty horrific and not something to be taken lightly. I still don't understand your objection (and in any case LS was not drawing a direct comparison, that was your chosen interpretation). My view is that you (and others for that matter) find the mention of certain crimes abhorrent in the context of this discussion and reject any analogy because to accept it would call into question the consistency of your morals in relation to your diet? The fact that you have placed a different meaning on what was originally said to that intended does seem to point to that.

 

[henryscat]

Those of you who eat meat - have a read of his article http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/1979----.htm.

Interesting the continued silence on this...

 

[Mikinton]

Interesting the continued silence on this...

Probably because few of us can be bothered to read it.

I skim read a few of the paragraphs and decided that there were probably many other articles that were higher up my reading list. Of course, if you wish to give us an overview, or quote a few of the salient points, I'm sure that would help in moving the discussion forward.

 

[db]

Some people don't think animals are comparable to people.

On what basis?

as has been stated many, many, many, many times, there are more justifications in this thread for eating meat than there are against.. just because you don't agree with someone's opinion/justification does not mean they have not provided one..

to re-iterate, for the umpteenth time - it is a moral choice, as you cannot prove that animals are "worth" more/the same as humans.. you cannot prove it, since it is a philosophical question - i.e. based on opinions and morals..

Some people have no ethical problems with raping their wives or beating the shit out of small children. It doesn't make it alright...

I have the utmost respect with the views of vegans/veggies and they make some very valid points to follow their diets but stupid comparrisons with meat eaters and rapists and child abusers is offensive and wrong headed. I don't know you( and coming out with rubbish like that I don't think I want to) and don't want to prejudge you but comments like that lose all your credibility and does nothing for cause of vegan/veggitarism

When did I say meat eaters are like rapists or child abusers?

your stupid point* implicitly connects the two..


* which, incidentally, only one person agrees with, and that person has somehow usurped shoes as "most disagreed with person on the forum" lol.. shoes gets a lot of peoples' backs up, but at least he doesn't flagrantly ignore things he disagrees with, and has admitted he has been wrong or has changed his opinion as a result of the points people have made, on more than one occasion..

 

[db]

Interesting the continued silence on this...

it's precisely because it isn't interesting that silence has ensued..

you ignore anything you can't reply to/justify (and before you pipe up with "show me some examples" i shall use your stock response here: look it up yourself) and after a while you just become exhausting & boring..

the irony is, your zealotry actually exacerbates exactly the behaviour that you hate (tek's earlier comment about enjoying his bacon samich even more, knowing that it makes you weep, for example )..

you are your own worst enemy lol..

 

[tek-monkey]

TBH I just got bored, we are both believers and there is no point trying to convert someone who BELIEVES. HC thinks his way is correct, I think mine is, and there is no way that satisfies both our beliefs that can determine it either way. He thinks animals shouldn't be killed for food, I think they should and only exist because they are food. You'd have to be a bit odd to keep a cow as a pet after all.

So sod it, I'll keep eating steaks and he can stick with nut roasts. Not like it bothers me that he's a vegan, like all religions just keep it to yourself and everyone will get on fine. I have no more right to influence his morality than he does mine, and no matter what he says I shall always believe my food tastes better.

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

there are more justifications in this thread for eating meat than there are against..

WTF?! Have I missed something? So far, the only argument I have seen for eating meat is "because I like it and you can't stop me". (Okay, for the pedants that was two arguments.)

your stupid point* implicitly connects the two..

Indeed, and in this post I have explained why they are connected and the point I was making, which seems to have been completely lost in favour of being offended because I dared to say what I think about other people's ethics... I could have used other examples that would offend people but those are the ones I used so get over it. =P

He thinks animals shouldn't be killed for food, I think they should and only exist because they are food.

Would you eat bats or iguanas?

 

[henryscat]

Probably because few of us can be bothered to read it.

"Can't be bothered" sums up much of what is wrong with society in general...

Of course, if you wish to give us an overview, or quote a few of the salient points, I'm sure that would help in moving the discussion forward.

Condensing things down into a few bullet points does not properly convey it, sometimes understanding something in greater depth is necessary... Why should everything be condensed down? I don't understand the expectation people have that all knowledge must be presented to them on a plate. Even if I did quote a few salient points, there are those that would read something completely different to the actual words on the screen in front of them.

 

[henryscat]

So far, the only argument I have seen for eating meat is "because I like it and you can't stop me". (Okay, for the pedants that was two arguments.

Yep, in pages of posts nobody has managed to come up with any substantive argument that goes beyond that.

 

[tek-monkey]

Would you eat bats or iguanas?

Do they taste nice? Alligator tail meat is rather nice, albeit a little odd, so am guessing iguana tails may be similar. Could be wrong, but I'd give them a go. No idea on bat, related to rodents but the meat would need to be rather light to enable it to fly. Would be very thin pieces, probably best as a stir fry?

 

[henryscat]

Do they taste nice? Alligator tail meat is rather nice, albeit a little odd, so am guessing iguana tails may be similar. Could be wrong, but I'd give them a go. No idea on bat, related to rodents but the meat would need to be rather light to enable it to fly. Would be very thin pieces, probably best as a stir fry?

What if the said iguana (or other animal) was your pet? Would you eat it then...?

 

[Lunar Scorpion]

Do they taste nice? Alligator tail meat is rather nice, albeit a little odd, so am guessing iguana tails may be similar. Could be wrong, but I'd give them a go. No idea on bat, related to rodents but the meat would need to be rather light to enable it to fly. Would be very thin pieces, probably best as a stir fry?

Well that backfired a bit... LOL

 

[Mikinton]

WTF?! Have I missed something? So far, the only argument I have seen for eating meat is "because I like it and you can't stop me". (Okay, for the pedants that was two arguments.)

I think most of the arguments for not eating meat have been for eating less meat rather than for not eating meat at all.

Someone will probably put me right, but I think the only argument presented for eating no meat at all is the moral argument.