The moral argument of eating meat & dairy

[Mikinton]

But dear god who can live without cheese?

Me, as it happens ..... and fish ..... and eggs.

 

[henryscat]

What is the difference between eating a chicken that was once alive than eating a lettuce that once was too? A more developed nervous system?

Maybe if you didn't come out with such idiotic statements as the above, that a child with primary school science could debunk, then maybe you wouldn't get so much of people voicing their opinions back at you.....

 

[tek-monkey]

He has a very valid point, at what point does a living thing go off the menu? And who draws that line?

One man's morals are another's madness.

 

[henryscat]

He has a very valid point, at what point does a living thing go off the menu? And who draws that line?.

Not in the least bit valid - there are some pretty key differences between eating a plant and an animal, and anyone who suggests otherwise quite frankly probably has less functioning brain cells than teeth.

For starters any animal should be off the menu because animals, like humans, have the capacity to suffer and feel pain. So, turning the question round what morally and ethically justifies putting them on the menu?

 

[tek-monkey]

As long as they are raised ok, and slaughtered ok, then I have no issue. If we hadn't domesticated these animals for food many wouldn't exist, we'd have hunted them all down for destroying our crops.

They are food, it is how nature intended.

 

[henryscat]

As long as they are raised ok, and slaughtered ok, then I have no issue. If we hadn't domesticated these animals for food many wouldn't exist, we'd have hunted them all down for destroying our crops.

Cows, sheep, pigs and chickens would all continue to exist if people abstained from meat - and yes their natural population would be much smaller than the artificial population of billions that are bred on farms. Don't see a problem there. Worth mentioning that human abuse of the environment and animal kingdom has caused the extinction of many species and put a significant number on the endangered list.

On your latter point, isn't there a touch of irony given that we feed a massive proportion of crops to animals for meat (whilst others in the world starve)?

They are food, it is how nature intended.

And did "nature" intend for billions of animals to be kept in factory farms....?

Whilst on the nature question, since when did nature intend one species to consume another species' milk, and consume it beyond being an infant weaned onto normal food?

 

[tek-monkey]

Eggs are meant to raise young, yet some species of snake exist purely on them. Some of the larger monitor lizards eat their own young if they can catch them, with the young having to stay arboreal to survive. Nature intends us to eat what we need, the real problem is we have too many humans.

I'd cull them.

 

[Withnail]

You first?

 

[tek-monkey]

We don't need to kill anyone, tempting though it may be. Just ban breeding past one child per adult (allowing a couple to have 2 kids). The mortality rate among kids is low, but will still result in a population reduction. If we have 3 million adults unemployed I suspect we could easily lose 2 million people without an issue.

It would also lower housing costs, road congestion and benefit payments.

 

[Withnail]

Just ban breeding past one child per adult .

http://www.staffordforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=9036

 

[henryscat]

Just ban breeding past one child per adult .

http://www.staffordforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=9036

Indeed.

 

[henryscat]

We don't need to kill anyone, tempting though it may be. Just ban breeding past one child per adult (allowing a couple to have 2 kids). The mortality rate among kids is low, but will still result in a population reduction. If we have 3 million adults unemployed I suspect we could easily lose 2 million people without an issue.

It would also lower housing costs, road congestion and benefit payments.

Does the UK really have an overpopulation problem...?

So how would you enforce (and justify) this Chinese style one child policy?

 

[henryscat]

Eggs are meant to raise young, yet some species of snake exist purely on them. Some of the larger monitor lizards eat their own young if they can catch them, with the young having to stay arboreal to survive. Nature intends us to eat what we need, the real problem is we have too many humans.

I'd cull them.

Neatly side stepping all the issues there....

 

[Withnail]

As omnivorous as i am...

i don't care about how it has ended up on my plate, really..

..we wouldn't have the enormous meat industry that we have these days and you wouldn't be making pointless arguments that no-one agrees with lol..

There seem to be a lot of 'anti' types who try and force their opinions on others… They're very welcome to the lifestyle if that's what pleases them but it sticks in my craw when they try to force opinions.

If you wish to trash henryscats opinions then so be it.

It's not really fair to complain about the forcing of opinions down your collective throats (like some overfed French goose) in a thread with the title Vegetarian Options.

Sort of thing.


Capital

 

[henryscat]

It strikes me as slightly curious that any kind of veggie stance is considered "forcing an opinion", yet all the "I like bacon" and "don't care how it got on my plate" apparently isn't.....

 

[tek-monkey]

I did ask admin to move the posts, even reported my own post, I assume he is busy though.

Do we have too high a population? Yes, there isn't enough work and we import a lot of food. How would I enforce less children? Only way is monetary unfortunately. No benefits for kids 3 and onwards, big tax hit for those that work.

As for neatly sidestepping the issue, killing animals isn't an issue to me. It is to you, fair enough, but it doesn't bother me at all.

 

[henryscat]

As for neatly sidestepping the issue, killing animals isn't an issue to me. It is to you, fair enough, but it doesn't bother me at all.

That wasn't really what this post was about...

I recognise that killing animals apparently isn't an issue for you and some others - but nobody has actually put any substantive justification behind that position, which doesn't surprise me really because meat eating is an entrenched habit and most people avoid considering the very real facts that call that habit into question (which is very evident on this thread and others). Cognitive dissonance abounds....

 

[tek-monkey]

I'm not really sure I need to, we are meant to be omnivores. I kind of agree with your stance on dairy, it isn't natural as such, but then man has always found new ways to exploit his surroundings. Burning oil isn't natural, harnessing electricity, nuclear energy, none of them natural for man to use.

You are right that I have provided no justification for eating meat, but then why break with tradition? Man has always eaten meat, I'm not even positive you can get the right balance of nutrients to live if you were to be vegan and reliant on the local area to produce food (as man would have needed to be in the past). Maybe your stance is that you think man has reached a point where he should stop eating the flesh of animals, I haven't though.

I like eating meat, I enjoy the taste and the texture. Last night I ate a hoisin and garlic duck stir fry, the duck was tender and moist and bloody lovely, why would I stop eating that? And the smell of cooking bacon is one of the best smells in the world, almost as good as the eating, it seems insane to stop because some people don't like the animals being killed. Plus, for now, meat is cheap. If it takes 10 times the land to feed animals as it does to grow veggies, why aren't veggies 1/10th of the price of a comparable meat meal? If meat becomes too expensive to eat, I will cut down. I can't see myself ever stopping though, because I like it too much.

Has anyone seen admin today? We need about 2 pages trimmed from this thread now!

 

[Miss Red]

People have fangs (the two little teeth at the sides) those are what meat eaters have (animals & humans) so we are meant to eat meat - veggie eaters and giraffes etc have all flat. Im not a veggie but im picky with meat, i eat chicken - forget ducks, geese, deers, pheasants and all that - if i have cottage pie or the likes i use veggie mince!

 

[db]

you've tried this one on me before and it just doesn't make any sense..

Engage your brain and it might...

i did engage my brain, hence the points that followed that made a mockery of your "logic":

i can't build a bridge - does that mean i shouldn't use them?
i can't harvest & prepare tea - does that mean i shouldn't drink it?
etc.

i'm sure you will come back with some tenuous retort that no-one will agree with, but even if you manage to, it will be irrelevant - the point is, thanks to evolution, industrialisation, etc. we don't have to do that stuff.. someone out there farms, slaughters, and prepares the meat for us, so we don't have to.. i don't care about how it has ended up on my plate, really..

There is a difference. Eating meat involves paying someone to kill and inflict harm on your behalf.

to an animal.. you are presuming that that means anything to me.. harvesting animals is the same as harvesting any other crop..

just because animals are worth more than that in your opinion doesn't make it true, hence why it is your opinion and not fact.. in the same way that the above is my opinion and not fact.. it's a case of moral beliefs, and unfortunately for you, you are outnumbered by millions to one..

The extension of your logic is this: that Nazi officers in World War 2 were not guilty of war crimes and the Holocaust because they paid others to exterminate Jews on their behalf. Those giving the orders were just as guilty as those carrying out the crimes. Or would you disagree?

of course i would disagree, because your logic assumes that animals carry the same weight as humans in this argument.. as previously stated, this is a matter of opinion and moral position, an area in which you are grossly in the minority, i'm afraid..

and i almost said "how long before someone invokes godwin's law?" in my previous post, but didn't want it to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.. but, no, you are full of so many trite clichés that you went ahead and got there before me anyway lol..

thanks to the internet and other modern media, we are all pretty well informed about how the manufacturing industry works.. we know our meat is mechanically separated, blasted from the bone with jets of water and mushed up.. we've seen the animals having a less than fun time of it..

No you are not well informed, nor are the much of the population. Most people choose to live in ignorance of where their meat comes from. And on the latter point, no you haven't.

haven't i? how do you know? here are some of the well documented videos to which i referred, which i think demonstrates that many of us are well aware of what goes on..

and for those who are not as well informed - well, you've countered your own argument there for me: people choose to live in ignorance.. people know that it's all a bit unsavoury, and so choose to let someone else do all the dirty work so that we can enjoy meat - in the same way that we choose to ignore oil consumption, employee rights violations in the factories of all the big electronics manufacturers, etc. so that we can reap the benefits of those industries and enjoy the luxuries that it affords us..

i've said it on here countless times before, but i'll have to say it again: whether you like it or not, human beings are a selfish lot.. we want our nice cars, our air conditioning, our beautifally prepared meat, our tiny electronic devices.. that's not going to change.. maybe it will, maybe thousands of years from now we'll live in a star trek utopia where we all wear spandex and put morals above desire, but i can't see it myself..

but, if that day ever comes, i'll be sure to ask my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson to point people to this forum, and they will say "henry scat was right all along"