Buying your dead pig from Tesco or Sainsbury?

[1JKz]

...and for the record this will be my last post (yet again i'm leaving a thread due to silly posts), so say about me what you will as i won't respond.

 

[db]

...all manner of (impo) improper posts

bigbluewolf, FDR, and presumably others found those pictures improper to post, however:

...this is Henryscat's post, he can do as he pleases, if you don't like it, leave the thread or start another, it's that simple.

so basically, posts that you agree with are ok, but anything you disagree with or consider "improper" (iypo) shouldn't be allowed?

henry scat posted a thread that was clearly meant to stir up debate - i personally have no problem with the pictures, because one thing he is right about is that some people perhaps don't know what goes on in the slaughter industry and seeing that might make them think on - but you can't expect it not to invite passionate responses and lively debate.. which is the whole point of a discussion forum..

 

[Jonah]

...this is Henryscat's post, he can do as he pleases, if you don't like it, leave the thread or start another, it's that simple.

No it's not *that* simple as you well know.

 

[proactive]

...and for the record this will be my last post (yet again i'm leaving a thread due to silly posts), so say about me what you will as i won't respond.

How childish. Do you have any concept of what discussion forums actually are?

Seems to be we all have to agree with your interpretation of how things should be or you will shoot us down.

Hope the door didn't hit you when you were on your way out...

 

[tek-monkey]

So, if I start a thread I can't be disagreed with? The forum would be very boring if every reply was 'Oh yes, how correct you are'.

forum (ˈfɔːrəm)

— n , pl -rums , -ra
1. a meeting or assembly for the open discussion of subjects of public interest
2. a medium for open discussion, such as a magazine
3. a public meeting place for open discussion
4. a court; tribunal
5. (in South Africa) a pressure group of leaders or representatives, esp Black leaders or representatives
6. (in ancient Italy) an open space, usually rectangular in shape, serving as a city's marketplace andcentre of public business

 

[henryscat]

Yes I do, because they are tasty. I am an omnivore with a bias towards flesh, genetically what else am I? My teeth tell my history, I am yet to find a reason to deny it. If flesh cost more I'd buy less, but I'd still buy it.

History does not form a justification. Historically, Nazi Germany gassed Jews, that does not form a justification for anyone to go ahead and gas Jews.

You say you find eating dead pig tasty. What is your justification for eating a dead pig from a factory farm as opposed to one from non-factory farm with higher welfare standards? (we'll leave aside for a second that the latter doesn't justify eating meat).

Odd, could have sworn you had a dog. Must be the CJD kicking in.

Either that or you've been using aluminium saucepans....

 

[Gramaisc]

Either that or you've been using aluminium saucepans....

I often quote my metallurgy lecturer stating in 1975 - "Of course, one day we'll be told that we shouldn't use aluminium saucepans".

 

[henryscat]

Are those photos really necessary? Personally I can look at them without getting upset or distressed but other forum members may not.
You have provided a link which gives information about the issue and has links to video of the farms involved so why post photos? Was it just for the shock factor?

Yes they are necessary, and I make no apology for posting them. There are far far worse photos around of factory farm conditions. If any factory farmed animal eating forumite gets distressed by such photos then why are they eating meat?

I have provided a link, but I suspect that many readers of the thread won't click on it and consider the content in details. The psychology/ideology of eating meat is such that it relies on what happens being kept hidden. Your reaction to my post bears this out too, since you (and no doubt others) are clearly uncomfortable with part of your meat eating ideology becoming visible.

 

[henryscat]

I spent 15 years working on various pig farms around the country and looking back some of the things we did and how the pigs were kept wasn't right but a lot has changed since then and pigs are now kept in much more pig friendly conditions.

Looking at the list of 'terrible' things there doesn't seem to be anything too bad there:-

So they're all perfectly normal then?

• 'Injured sows incarcerated in farrowing crates'

Farrowing crates are used to protect the piglets from being crushed or eaten by the sow. If the sow is injured then she can be treated more easily in a crate.

Is keeping a pig in a farrowing crate, where they cannot even turn round an acceptable standard of welfare? There is not the evidence to prove they are justified for the reason you state. If for a moment the argument is accepted that there is a risk of piglets being crushed, what does this tell you about the conditions they are being kept in?

• 'A dying piglet frothing at the mouth'
• No doubt the piglet would put out of it's misery very quickly.
• 'Others gasping for air and coughing'
• This sounds the worst to me, if they are gasping for air they are either ill or there is a problem with ventilation, I doubt it would be the latter so they would either be treated or if too ill they would be put out of their misery.
• 'Dead pigs and piglets left on the ground'
• We used to collect dead pigs once a day so they might be left lying around for a few hours but not in the pen with the other pigs, I don't see a problem with that.
• 'Barren units'
• Don't know what that is.
• 'Colony of rats inside feed bin'

Rats are a problem everywhere, I have them at the bottom of my garden.

Again, do you think it is acceptable and normal that pigs are dying in these conditions daily? If welfare standards were anywhere near acceptable, then mortality rate would not be at the levels found.

• 'Routine tail-docking'

Tail docking is done at birth to stop them chewing each other tails later on. If left they can chew each others tails right back to the body which can kill them. To wait until there is a tail biting problem before docking is cruel because it hurts a lot more when they are older.

Routine tail docking has been illegal in the EU since 2003.

If pigs are driven to attacking each other, what does this tell you about the conditions?

• 'An incinerator full of bodies waiting to be burned'
• So?

Same question as before - does this not tell you something is very very wrong?

Pig farmers are under huge financial pressure to provide cheap meat and compete with cheap foreign imports from countries with far worse animal welfare than the UK.

And supermarkets (and consumers for that matter) know that demanding cheap meat will be at the expense of welfare standards, which happens because the government/local government inspection/enforcement regimes are pathetic.

 

[henryscat]

So, if I start a thread I can't be disagreed with? The forum would be very boring if every reply was 'Oh yes, how correct you are'.

How childish. Do you have any concept of what discussion forums actually are?

Seems to be we all have to agree with your interpretation of how things should be or you will shoot us down.

Hope the door didn't hit you when you were on your way out...

I think the point 1JKz is making is being missed. I certainly don't start threads expecting to be agreed with. I think it is the way in which disagreement is being expressed that is being referred to. There are certainly posters in this thread who have resorted to posts verging on personal abuse (which I have not commented upon) rather than putting forward reasoned argument. Personally, I have no expectation of everyone agreeing, but it ought to be possible to have a pretty robust reasoned debate without bringing personalities into it. I do think there is an element on this subject where some people have a deep seated fear of delving into their beliefs though.

 

[proactive]

posts verging on personal abuse (which I have not commented upon) rather than putting forward reasoned argument

Perhaps it is because you simply will not accept any argument, no matter how well reasoned, if it goes against YOUR beliefs, and that drives people mad.

 

[United57]

I prefer bacon to pork !

 

[tek-monkey]

Everyone believes their own beliefs are more valid than the next persons, its human nature. Just like eating meat

EDIT: Besides, HC played the nazi card so thats kind of the exit point of any real argument.

 

[henryscat]

Perhaps it is because you simply will not accept any argument, no matter how well reasoned, if it goes against YOUR beliefs, and that drives people mad.

There are, unfortunately, a lot of posts in the not reasoned at all category. I'll repeat that I do not have expectation of agreement but it is in my view legitimate to strongly question and debate. There seem to be some subjects and meat eating is one of them where some people are clearly uncomfortable about debating them in depth, partly because it starts to reveal inconsistencies in behaviours and beliefs- which the human psyche does not deal particularly well with.

 

[henryscat]

Everyone believes their own beliefs are more valid than the next persons, its human nature. Just like eating meat

Meat eating isn't human nature, it is learned behaviour.

EDIT: Besides, HC played the nazi card so thats kind of the exit point of any real argument.

It is actually a very very serious line of discussion and it isn't one to be taken lightly.

 

[Franklin_Delano_Roosevelt]

There are, unfortunately, a lot of posts in the not reasoned at all category. I'll repeat that I do not have expectation of agreement but it is in my view legitimate to strongly question and debate. There seem to be some subjects and meat eating is one of them where some people are clearly uncomfortable about debating them in depth, partly because it starts to reveal inconsistencies in behaviours and beliefs- which the human psyche does not deal particularly well with.

But I think what you fail to grasp is that resorting to nazism references & posting pictures of mutilation makes your argument look less like a "reasoned & strong debate" and more like reactionary nonsense. Not all pigs die foaming into a gutter, not all Nazi history is based around gassing Jews, they did lots of other bad stuff too - thats the point you lack any balanced analysis & then you wonder why people either tune out completely or just assume you are a total fruit cake.

 

[Withnail]

It is actually a very very serious line of discussion and it isn't one to be taken lightly.

The analogy with historic attitudes toward slavery (that you have used elsewhere) works much better than the Nazi one - stick with that.

 

[Jonah]

Yes they are necessary, and I make no apology for posting them. There are far far worse photos around of factory farm conditions. If any factory farmed animal eating forumite gets distressed by such photos then why are they eating meat?

I have provided a link, but I suspect that many readers of the thread won't click on it and consider the content in details. The psychology/ideology of eating meat is such that it relies on what happens being kept hidden. Your reaction to my post bears this out too, since you (and no doubt others) are clearly uncomfortable with part of your meat eating ideology becoming visible.

My reaction? Do you mean my reaction of shock and surprise that someone would post unpleasant photos on a public forum without using a link instead of embedding them in the post? That was my reaction and that's why I posted as I did. I think you ought to consider other people when posting photos like that.

You've assumed I'm uncomfortable with my "meat eating ideology becoming visible". To be honest, I never realised that I had a "meat eating ideology". I thought I ate meat because I enjoyed it.

It must be obvious to you that when abattoirs don't confirm to government guidelines that I don't want those companies to produce meat for our consumption. As a consumer I have to have faith in claims of the shops and supermarkets which sell meat as to how it has been produced. When it's found not to be true then most certainly things need to be done to make sure it is put right.

 

[monkey bidness]

Just for the record, Animal Aid website released the following press release yesterday (30th) :

Since releasing this information, Animal Aid has been contacted by representatives of both Sainsbury's and Tesco who asked us to issue the following statements. The Sainsbury's spokesperson said: ‘Sainsbury's does not source from Arnoe Farm, Highfields Farm and Twinwood Pig Unit.’ and the Tesco spokesperson said: ‘Bedfordshire Farms ltd is not a supplier to Tesco and we do not source any pork from Arnoe Farm, Highfields Farm or Twinwood Pig Unit.’

So... Why has Henry Scat alluded to Tesco & Sainsburys in the title of his post?

 

[Withnail]

So... Why has Henry Scat alluded to Tesco & Sainsburys in the title of his post?

Presumably because the retractions came post-posting?

Edit: come to think of it - i didn't click on the initial link at first but did so earlier today ~ 11 ish. At that stage they had the statement from Sainsburys but not Tesco. In between then and now it would appear that Tesco have also done their thing.