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The moral argument of eating meat & dairy

Discussion in 'Lifestyle, Health & Diet' started by Mikinton, Dec 31, 2011.

  1. henryscat

    henryscat Well-Known Forumite

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    In which case why do you have to cook it first? You don't see a Cheetah barbecuing the gazelle it has just caught.....
     
  2. Miss Red

    Miss Red Well-Known Forumite

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    You dont "have" to cook it - its "recommended" - personally i wouldnt but hey ho each to his own :)
     
  3. tek-monkey

    tek-monkey wanna see my snake?

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    And veggies don't cook vegetables? :rolleyes:
     
  4. henryscat

    henryscat Well-Known Forumite

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    I missed that then, because nowhere have you said anything meaningful.


    Nope, didn't presume that for a second.

    It is a dangerous trap to fall into to state that the majority "belief" is right.

    Well so far you have spectacularly failed in putting a coherent argument together in support of your apparent view that an animal's life is inferior to a human's. If you really do believe that, then put forward a properly substantiated coherent argument. To paraphrase your reasoning thus far: "I don't care, people are selfish, I can pay someone else to have blood on their hands". Your posts so far imply that you believe what you are saying, but that you don't actually know why you believe it.

    Again "you're in the minority" does not equate to something being wrong. There are plenty of examples of changes in history which started with a minority view.

    It demonstrates you can type something into google and very little else.
     
  5. henryscat

    henryscat Well-Known Forumite

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    On the whole, eating raw vegetables won't cause you any ill effect. Eating raw meat probably will.
     
  6. tek-monkey

    tek-monkey wanna see my snake?

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    No it wont, if eaten fresh. You may get a minor stomach ache but thats about it, beef is best served virtually uncooked anyway.

    Plus, maybe a cheetah would barbecue a gazelle if it was able to?
     
  7. Gramaisc

    Gramaisc Forum O. G.

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    I've got a copy of Raw Eating soemwhere. The chap reckoned that cooking was the source of all our troubles..
     
  8. db

    db #chaplife

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    just because you state something doesn't make it true.. i have said plenty that is meaningful.. this is where you ask me to justify it, but i will take your approach with that one and tell you to figure it out yourself by simply reading what i have written.. if you honestly think there is no meaning in any of it, then it only serves to make the irony of you calling people juvenile and unlearned to grow..

    then all of your points are meaningless.. if you didn't presume that i have any feelings towards the debate, then why spend so long trying to refute them?

    indeed it is, hence the caveat i included that you conveniently neglected to quote (something you do a lot):

    the fact that you don't realise you are preaching your moral beliefs and not fact, if anything, shows that i am more objective than you on this occasion..

    but don't let that stand in the way or you dismissing my entire post on the basis that you are, of course, right :roll:

    as others have said, i don't need to "put an argument together".. that is just the belief of most people, and i am one of them.. you believe differently.. you can't prove it.. i'm sure you will try, but that comes back to the fact that you confuse morals with provable scientific fact..

    at no point did i imply that i thought it did.. i was simply being facetious and reveling in the fact that, for all your huffing and puffing:

     
  9. henryscat

    henryscat Well-Known Forumite

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    I fully understand the difference between opinions, facts, and all the rest of it. But, it comes down to this: you only state what your opinion is, and never anything substantive on why (thought I'd use a bit of bold there, you seem to be partial to it). A coherent argument on the "why" isn't necessarily about facts either. So, I stand by what I said, you hold beliefs but cannot or will not explain them....
     
  10. tek-monkey

    tek-monkey wanna see my snake?

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    OK then, my opinion on why I eat meat:

    It tastes bloody lovely

    That OK?
     
  11. db

    db #chaplife

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    really? honestly? jesus wept, it really does make it hard to muster the motivation to type such verbose responses to your tenuous arguments when it becomes apparent that you don't even read the responses of others..

    ok, seeing as you missed the dozens of posts from other people saying essentially the same thing as me, i will try and summarise..

    you say:

    so, first off, let's clarify - you agree that we are not dealing with facts, but opinions and moral beliefs? therefore, you cannot be "more right" than me, and vice versa? ok? thanks.. glad you can grasp that one, at least..

    so, to address your last request (as i say, a summary of what has already been said, but for some reason you choose not to read stuff you can't attempt to rebuff):

    - i believe in the food chain
    - i believe that, thanks to evolution and industrialisation, we are at the top of that food chain
    - i believe that a human life is more important than an animal life (don't start bleating on about eco-systems and how the whole world would end if bees disappeared - i'm obviously talking about the philosophical argument)
    - i believe that the vast majority of people eat meat
    - i believe that this will not change

    people eat animals.. we have done for millions of years, we have just got better at killing & preparing them as a society (yes, a society - that means we work as a collective and get others to do the stuff we don't want to/can't).. don't start trying to draw erroneous analogies ("we used slaves for hundreds of years, doesn't make it right [​IMG]", etc.), i'm talking about basic animalistic "circle of life" shit that has been going on forever..
     
  12. db

    db #chaplife

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    oh, and that lol..

    in fact, just that.. that's basically why everyone eats meat, which mikinton summarised perfectly with his "bacon sandwich" quip..

    but apparently that's not good enough for henry scat - in his world you're not allowed to do anything without pages and pages of justification, references and supporting evidence lol..
     
  13. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Forumite

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    I know many people who don't eat meat, whether it be for health reasons (the missuses parents stopped eating meat after BSE), or if it's for moral reasons. I respect their wishes, and they respect my wishes to eat meat. it tastes nice, it can be eaten raw as stated (so long as it's fresh),

    and before any of you give your bleating hearts speech

    1) does the fact that me eating meat restrict the number of animals on the planet, therefroe reducing methane, not make it eco friendly?
    2) are you veggies not restricting the number of plants photosynthesising by only eating poor defenceless fruit and veg?
    3)i don't agree with animals being bred in cramped conditions
    4) i would happily kill any animal i wish to eat, and i believe that anyone who wishes to eat meat should also be happy with this deal
     
  14. db

    db #chaplife

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    well, exactly..

    reading over my posts in this thread, anyone could be forgiven for thinking i am some kind of grotesque, bunny-eating monster, who stamps on hamsters for fun.. in reality, i'm quite a reasonable chap, and in an ideal world i would love to see no suffering toward anyone, man or beast..

    but therein lies my main gripe with henry scat (and, i dare say, most people who find themselves in an altercation with him) - his zealotry and inability to conduct a debate on any reasonable, common plane means that you end up just wanting to piss him off.. so rather than posit your rebuttal in a reasonable fashion, one ends up sniping back in kind, and ultimately going round in circles..

    he's like richard dawkins, whose similar over-zealousness and refusal to accept that (horror!) different people have different beliefs means he has almost turned atheism into a religion in and of itself, shouting down anyone who dares to disagree with, what he perceives as, categorical truth..

    henry scat, you say that i don't justify my beliefs.. well, i have, several times, but just to re-iterate:

    you can't beat a bacon sandwich :pig:
     
  15. henryscat

    henryscat Well-Known Forumite

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    Erm....... No. Quite the opposite. The global population of say, a billion cattle (it is that, give or take) is only at that stupendous number because humans breed them to eat. Naturally their population wouldn't be anywhere near that. Cattle do produce a significant quantity of methane and waste which is a huge environmental problem. All caused by breeding them to eat beef and drink milk.

    Plants don't photosynthesize at night, they do the opposite. Perhaps we should floodlight the planet.

    If you want to talk photosynthesis then there's the small matter of deforestation which comes back to...... the meat industry.


    Good, so hopefully you don't eat animals that have been kept in such conditions.


    Yes, I agree anyone who eats meat ought to be prepared to kill their own, but the majority it would seem would not.
     
  16. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Forumite

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    so if i primarily eat chicken then i'm ok, yeah?
     
  17. henryscat

    henryscat Well-Known Forumite

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    Those three are more or less the same thing.... so, on what (philosophical) basis does a human life take precedence over an animals?

    Does our evolution not also confer some responsibilities?

    In the developed world, yes.

    History is full of examples of things changing that people thought would remain fixed....

    Change could happen for a couple of reasons. In the same way that the principle of equality has brought most people round to the view that racism and sexism is wrong, that same principle should be applied to animals. However, changes like that don't happen over night.

    The other reason for change, which is more likely in the shorter term is one of resources and the environment applied to food supply. Feeding such an enormous quantity of crops to animals isn't sustainable economically or environmentally. Something will give...


    What's the objection to analogies? They're a very good (and valid) way of illustrating gaping inconsistencies in how people think and act. Slavery is a relevant parallel to draw, so interesting you wish to disregard it...

    It's also interesting that you raise working as a collective, since it is in precisely that way by the blurring of who's responsible for what in a large scale killing industry that enables both workers and consumers to more easily seek to absolve themselves of guilt.

    One last point - the way in which we treat animals directly impacts on how we treat other people too. The two are linked.
     
  18. Miss Red

    Miss Red Well-Known Forumite

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    I know a lot of humans who let a lot of methayne out too lol as for your last point - i hope not (tek might eat me between two slices of brown rye) lol
     
  19. henryscat

    henryscat Well-Known Forumite

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    Funny you should mention Richard Dawkins, as I am a raving atheist too. His programmes on Channel 4 ages back on religion were really good. In one of them he made the point that one of the reasons that religion perpetuates despite the huge mountains of evidence that there isn't a God is that children are bought up to believe in god. Religious beliefs that are instilled in people as kids become entrenched and remain despite any amount of evidence to the contrary, so you get the complete inconsistency of scientists who beleive in creationism. Meat eating isn't that far removed from that - most kids are brought up eating meat, being told it is the right thing (and usually not told where it comes from), and it becomes entrenched behaviour.
     
  20. tek-monkey

    tek-monkey wanna see my snake?

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    Ah, the other other white meat :D

    Interesting thought though, would you eat human? Flesh is flesh, food is for nutrition. If the flesh holds the nutrition and is not adverse to your health, why not? Obviously nobody wants their own species back in the food chain, but I'm sure most would baulk at eating our closest relatives too like apes. I guess henryscat just draws his line a lot further than most of us, as discernable pain appears to be his guide on what to eat. What if you could synthasise it? They already grow organs in labs, could make a human haggis!

    Its been a long day!
     

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