Electric cars.

John Marwood

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Sir

Driverless Governments

Have the plug in power points been removed

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Gladys Cremefawn-Goosette ( Mrs )
East Sussex
 

Cue

Well-Known Forumite
There's no shortage of them in the UK that's for sure. If you own a Tesla (Model 3 just started rolling off the line!) then you get access to the supercharger network which is barely ever at 100% capacity at a location. If they are, use the other chargers and pay up any way. There's also a new government initiative announced in the last budget to get chargers at every petrol station. Personally I don't see the point as it's better to have them where there's someone to go, you don't generally hang around a station for half an hour but you would a Moto (which generally have them thankfully). This coming from the government that introduced BIK for electric vehicles after them being 0% for so long...

My dad's got a Leaf and loves it. He has a half hour commute so it's perfect for him. Only time he struggles is when they visit, as it's 180 miles so they end up doing a couple of stops.

I'm sure I can get him to upgrade to a Model 3 eventually. I'm gunning for an S still, the missus doesn't like the nose on the 3 so I just HAVE to get the S she says.

Lucky me. It's only twice the price.

Incidentally, there's an owner of an S that works at the hospital. Or they did, haven't been by their chargers in a long time but always saw it parked out there each day.
 
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1JKz

Well-Known Forumite
Like them, (or think you) loathe them, they're coming!

They're going to be the norm, only reason why they haven't taken off since their introduction all those decades ago, is that we can all produce our own electric energy, it just needs to be the norm before we do it and which energy provider wants the general public knowing how to produce their own energy!!?

...right, how do i get a solar panel on the roof?
 

proactive

Enjoying a drop of red.
I very much doubt electric cars are the long term future. Hydrogen seems more plausible and suitable to many people's needs.
 

Cue

Well-Known Forumite
I very much doubt electric cars are the long term future. Hydrogen seems more plausible and suitable to many people's needs.

"Charging" a hydrogen fuel cell car requires something ridiculous like 3x the energy of charging an electric car. Not to mention you definitely wouldn't be able to "charge" it at home given the amount of stuff required to do so - you can't just use a small charger mounted on a wall.

You need dedicated hydrogen top-up stations of the same ilk as petrol stations. You can't just plonk them down anywhere really.

So no, it's highly unlikely hydrogen fuel cell cars will be the future. They're wasteful and the work is better spent improving battery charge times. Right now half an hour will give you 200-250 miles in a Tesla and you probably should be stopping for a break if you're driving for that log anyway.
 

proactive

Enjoying a drop of red.
"Charging" a hydrogen fuel cell car requires something ridiculous like 3x the energy of charging an electric car. Not to mention you definitely wouldn't be able to "charge" it at home given the amount of stuff required to do so - you can't just use a small charger mounted on a wall.

You need dedicated hydrogen top-up stations of the same ilk as petrol stations. You can't just plonk them down anywhere really.

So no, it's highly unlikely hydrogen fuel cell cars will be the future. They're wasteful and the work is better spent improving battery charge times. Right now half an hour will give you 200-250 miles in a Tesla and you probably should be stopping for a break if you're driving for that log anyway.
I disagree. I have no idea of the energy efficiency of hydrogen but being powered by such means the average motorist will be able to keep using cars in a flexible and range-anxiety free way, just as they do with petrol cars now.

No need to wait an hour to charge up as that takes five minutes with hydrogen, as it does with petrol.

Ok, having decent hydrogen infrastructure will take time (how many electric charging points were there 10 years ago?) but, unless you currently have your own petrol station in you front garden, it will be hugely more useable than electric.
 

Lucy

Well-Known Forumite
I think the reason they haven't taken off yet is the range. As soon I can get a decently priced one that has a 300 mile range I'll be purchasing - although I don't need it often I will need one enough for it to put me off at present.
 

Cue

Well-Known Forumite
I think the reason they haven't taken off yet is the range. As soon I can get a decently priced one that has a 300 mile range I'll be purchasing - although I don't need it often I will need one enough for it to put me off at present.

Define decently priced? Is £30k new decently priced?

I disagree. I have no idea of the energy efficiency of hydrogen but being powered by such means the average motorist will be able to keep using cars in a flexible and range-anxiety free way, just as they do with petrol cars now.

No need to wait an hour to charge up as that takes five minutes with hydrogen, as it does with petrol.

Ok, having decent hydrogen infrastructure will take time (how many electric charging points were there 10 years ago?) but, unless you currently have your own petrol station in you front garden, it will be hugely more useable than electric.

You can already use an EV in a range-anxiety free way, just maybe not the cheaper ones right now. Like I said, if you're driving 300+ miles you should be stopping for breaks anyway - so why not stop and charge up in that time too? While the Leaf can only push 100 miles to a charge, the top end EVs can see up to 380 miles to a charge and get to about 300 miles in half an hour of charging.

Hydrogen is horribly inefficient, the only reason it's getting any traction at all (and by any, I mean 1 station is 1 state in the US IIRC) is that it's being pushed by certain companies who stand to lose a lot if you can fuel your car up at your house without needing them at all, they thrive off the fuel station model and want to keep it around in some form or another.

You have to transport liquid hydrogen in the same way you have to transport fuel, then you pump it into your car, then your car converts it into energy. Except, it was energy to begin with before being shipped so you're wasting huge amounts of it to turn the hydrogen into a liquid, then transporting it, then turning it into a liquid again. See the silliness here? You're not gonna save any environment tanking around huge containers of liquid hydrogen. Storing said hydrogen is also incredibly expensive - the molecules are so small that you need a completely perfect metal alloy container to store them, which is very expensive to produce. Otherwise it'll just leak out everywhere.

It's entirely possible we can make huge leaps in battery tech and get charge times down dramatically. So why a hydrogen powered car have any use if we can fuel up a 75kWh battery in 5 minutes and then get 280 miles out of it? Or a 100 kWh in say, 10 minutes (battery charging isn't linear) and get almost 400 miles out of it?

If you haven't guessed, I'm a huge proponent for electric cars. My next is a Model S.
 
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Lucy

Well-Known Forumite
No, I am half Yorkshire, I don't want to spend more than £7k on a car (second hand of course).
 

Cue

Well-Known Forumite
No, I am half Yorkshire, I don't want to spend more than £7k on a car (second hand of course).

Makes sense! I imagine they'll come down soon, you can get a Leaf for £7k if you look but it'll only do 80-90 miles to a charge. Great if you only need to jaunt around Stafford but not great for long distance. I imagine we'll see Model 3s used for around... £18-20k in a couple of years perhaps? Depends how much they RRP for really. It's gonna be a while before we see £7k 300 mile range cars though. Early 2016 it was around $190/kWh for the battery alone and right now you need somewhere in the region of 60-70 kWh to get 300 miles but no doubt that will improve with time.
 

Lucy

Well-Known Forumite
Yea, it'll be some time coming, but if I can't get more than 90 miles out of it I'd have to have 2 cars!
 

proactive

Enjoying a drop of red.
Define decently priced? Is £30k new decently priced?



You can already use an EV in a range-anxiety free way, just maybe not the cheaper ones right now. Like I said, if you're driving 300+ miles you should be stopping for breaks anyway - so why not stop and charge up in that time too? While the Leaf can only push 100 miles to a charge, the top end EVs can see up to 380 miles to a charge and get to about 300 miles in half an hour of charging.

Hydrogen is horribly inefficient, the only reason it's getting any traction at all (and by any, I mean 1 station is 1 state in the US IIRC) is that it's being pushed by certain companies who stand to lose a lot if you can fuel your car up at your house without needing them at all, they thrive off the fuel station model and want to keep it around in some form or another.

You have to transport liquid hydrogen in the same way you have to transport fuel, then you pump it into your car, then your car converts it into energy. Except, it was energy to begin with before being shipped so you're wasting huge amounts of it to turn the hydrogen into a liquid, then transporting it, then turning it into a liquid again. See the silliness here? You're not gonna save any environment tanking around huge containers of liquid hydrogen. Storing said hydrogen is also incredibly expensive - the molecules are so small that you need a completely perfect metal alloy container to store them, which is very expensive to produce. Otherwise it'll just leak out everywhere.

It's entirely possible we can make huge leaps in battery tech and get charge times down dramatically. So why a hydrogen powered car have any use if we can fuel up a 75kWh battery in 5 minutes and then get 280 miles out of it? Or a 100 kWh in say, 10 minutes (battery charging isn't linear) and get almost 400 miles out of it?

If you haven't guessed, I'm a huge proponent for electric cars. My next is a Model S.
I am a big fan of electric vehicles as well, just not so sure they are anything other than a medium term solution.

Our current family car is a Model S.
 

Cue

Well-Known Forumite
I am a big fan of electric vehicles as well, just not so sure they are anything other than a medium term solution.

Our current family car is a Model S.

I am very jealous. You're not the one who parks at the hospital are you? That's the only S I've seen around.
 

proactive

Enjoying a drop of red.
I am very jealous. You're not the one who parks at the hospital are you? That's the only S I've seen around.
No, not me. That's one of the big cheese consultants. As far as I know there are 5 Model S and a Model X currently gliding around the borough.
 

Cue

Well-Known Forumite
No, not me. That's one of the big cheese consultants. As far as I know there are 5 Model S and a Model X currently gliding around the borough.

Only seen one so far, huh. Lots of Leaf sightings though.

I'm fortunate enough that they've reduced the test drive minimum age to 21. While I am closer to 25 than 21 I am also quite impatient so glad that they've reduced it - just need to find the time to take the drive now, though I'm sure it'll be a really bad idea and I'll be emailing my accountant about tax efficient ways to pay for it soon after.

Slightly unrelated note: they're remarkably cheap or remarkably expensive to rent depending on how much you think a car in that price range would cost. £200 a day, though not worth it for what we wanted it for (driving off after a registry office ceremony back home less than a mile away).
 

c0tt0nt0p

Well-Known Forumite
Define decently priced? Is £30k new decently priced?
Hydrogen is horribly inefficient, the only reason it's getting any traction at all (and by any, I mean 1 station is 1 state in the US IIRC) is that it's being pushed by certain companies who stand to lose a lot if you can fuel your car up at your house without needing them at all, they thrive off the fuel station model and want to keep it around in some form or another.

I get what you're saying... you don't think much about Hydrogen !! but if you're going to band number about then back it up...

https://www.afdc.energy.gov/locator/stations/

There's a lot more than just one !!!
 
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