Buying your dead pig from Tesco or Sainsbury?

[Gramaisc]

Thankfully he's not started on beer !

I suspect that he would do that with rather less temperance.

 

[tek-monkey]

Thats valuable vegetable land that is, being used for hops and apples! Although don't we import a lot of veg? Pretty sure a lot of what we see nowadays aint local, so the transport implications can't be good. Is the UK self sufficient in food? I'm assuming we export too.

 

[Gramaisc]

I'm assuming we export too.

The logistics of food production are often bizarre. I remember it being revealed, during one of the salmonella scares, that we export almost exactly the same amount of chicken to the Netherlands as they export to us.

 

[Gramaisc]

Bit of chat at the start of this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b037vb44 - about 'cultured leather', which seems likely to be the first of the 'indirect' animal products to hit the market - in just a few years, apparently.

 

[henryscat]

While i'm not hugely sure that this is not the case, i am not massively convinced that it is.

I have no doubt that chickens would make it - brutal animals, chickens - but the cows and pigs would have a rough time of it, as well as those sheep that have been 'genetically engineered' for their fleeciness. Would this 'in the wild' of which you speak contain predators?

'Enslaved' is an emotive word - it has to be said that the history of animal husbandry is an unknown, and in many ways unknowable, one. I have read some of the things you have linked to previously upon this subject with the kind of incredulity i generally reserve for that species of human most noted for their swivelling eyes.

Sheep in the wild would shed their fleece, but you are right that human intervention has not helped them. I've no problem with natural predators in nature.

I disagree that the history of animal husbandry is unknown. Even if you set that aside, I would challenge you to deny that animals are enslaved today - in modern factory farming conditions especially.

 

[henryscat]

Bit of chat at the start of this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b037vb44 - about 'cultured leather', which seems likely to be the first of the 'indirect' animal products to hit the market - in just a few years, apparently.

Don't understand why there needs to be cultured leather - there are synthetic versions around indistinguishable from real leather. I quite often get accused of wearing leather Doc Martens and have to point out that they are in fact veggie ones.

 

[Gramaisc]

Don't understand why there needs to be cultured leather - there are synthetic versions around indistinguishable from real leather. I quite often get accused of wearing leather Doc Martens and have to point out that they are in fact veggie ones.

Did you listen to it? The chap is suggesting that there may be a market for leather blouses..

..I suspect that he may have 'specialist interests'...

 

[Withnail]

I've no problem with natural predators in nature.

Lucky you...

 

[henryscat]

They are a marginal improvemnt on the old style, but I feel that pig producers are doing the minimum to circumvent the new rules, rather than making a genuine attempt to improve the lives of these poor creatures.

My view is that they are doing the bare minimum to gain RSPCA logos on their packets to make sure they flog more dead pig. Profit always comes before welfare.

What I find most shocking is the number of people who genuinely just don't care that animals bred for food are so poorly treated, or those who talk about caring but continue to eat meat that has been produced using incredibly cruel methods.

People are completely disconnected from what goes on to produce their food. The meat and dairy industry goes to great lengths to keep things hidden and to create the false notion that all their animals are happy and well treated.

If you care about animals and don't want to go veggie then buy free range...........it might cost a few pence more, but the benefit to the animal is a massive improvement in their welfare during their short lives. Anyone who drives between Rugeley and Lichfield will see the big free range pig farm on the left. It's not an unusual thing nowadays and free range meat is really not hard to find or expensive. And that little bit of thought from the consumer, when mulitplied by lots of consumers becomes a very powerful thing. Look at battery eggs, they have become the exception rather than the rule, and it's up to each and every meat eater to do the right thing and chose free range if they want to see change in the way meat is produced. Money talks and supermarkets who are aiming to maximise profits will listen when the consumer demands things.

Free range doesn't always mean a great deal better on the welfare front mind you. For chickens, although battery cages have been replaced with "enriched cages", they actually provide hardly any extra space. Free range chickens are often kept in intensive conditions indoors with little opportunity to access the outside, and their premature mortality rate is only marginally lower than non-free range chickens.

 

[Gramaisc]

I've no problem with natural predators in nature.

Lucky you...

Indeed, one of the benefits of living on an island off Western Europe. You are very unlikely to die as a result of a wild animal's actions here - maybe, if you hit a deer crossing the Chase, perhaps. It's been many years since anybody even died from an adder bite..

 

[henryscat]

I think they are part of modern farming and we'd have a lot less food if we didn't use them

Probably a subject of its own for another thread, but pesticide use is causing all sorts of issues not least poisoning wildlife and polluting water supply (but lets not forget all the animal poo from meat and dairy farming pollutes too). Bee populations are approaching crisis point thanks to pesticide use too. Modern intensive agriculture is unsustainable on various fronts and will bite us on the bottom. Oil prices are going to increase food prices due to a system relying on fertiliser derived from cheap oil. There are alternative ways of farming and producing enough food.

but I'm an animal murdering mofo.

They're your words, not mine...

 

[henryscat]

Whilst it is very difficult to make out a lot from the photo it does appear to be a great improvement from the old farrowing crate.

Lucky pigs eh. Would you like to live in that sort of confinement...?

If you are so concerned about animal welfare you should be campaigning to have all imports of meat banned from countries that do not have as high welfare standards as the UK.

The UKs "welfare" standards are pretty poor. It does amuse me when people inform me what it is I should be campaigning for. The answer is that meat and dairy consumption is not necessary nor justified.

 

[Gramaisc]

Probably a subject of its own for another thread, but pesticide use is causing all sorts of issues not least poisoning wildlife and polluting water supply (but lets not forget all the animal poo from meat and dairy farming pollutes too). Bee populations are approaching crisis point thanks to pesticide use too.

Of course, there's DDT and organophosphates, too.

It may not bother people too much, but there's been a dearth of wasps this year - I have only seen one so far..

Of course, one of the justifications for GM crops is their lower requirements for pesticides..

 

[Withnail]

Sheep in the wild would shed their fleece...

I'm not entirely sure that that is true of some species, though i admit i'm on shaky ground - the wool is the bit that doesn't fall off.

I disagree that the history of animal husbandry is unknown.

So the history of domestication is known, you say? I'd always thought that it was open to a lot of theory and conjecture - perhaps you know of someone who could give an eye-witness account?

Does vegetarianism extend lifespans to 10,000 years?

 

[tek-monkey]

So you disagree with pesticides, dare I ask from where you source your vegetables?

As for wasps, seen plenty this year. More since the bees left in fact, almost like they were being kept at bay.

 

[monkey bidness]

Of course, there's DDT and organophosphates, too.

It may not bother people too much, but there's been a dearth of wasps this year - I have only seen one so far..

Of course, one of the justifications for GM crops is their lower requirements for pesticides..

Can also confirm wasp dearth here in Rising Brook. Happily there has been marked rise in numbers of bees ( all varieties, Bumble, Ground, Mason etc) and an amazing number of butterflies. Also sparrows! Little buggers nicking my chickens' feed. However Robins, which were plentiful last year, seem to have moved on.

( do anything to hijack this thread !)

 

[Withnail]

Every single house in me Ma's street has a wasp nest in it, innit? And yet i have been 'plagued' this year by a sum total of one wasp - i gave it much longer shrift than i would have in other years.

I would challenge you to deny that animals are enslaved today...

If i may be permitted to dwell a while on the notion of 'enslavement' - is the dog 'enslaved'?

 

[1JKz]

This thread is quite pleasant now, everyone behaving, well done class.

...some people on holiday?

I love animals and i love to eat animals, i really am torn between the two, and that's where i sit, trying my best to believe/trust the providers and suppliers of animal products (like a good percentage of folk), only so much i can do though, but at the very least i am trying.

 

[tek-monkey]

If i may be permitted to dwell a while on the notion of 'enslavement' - is the dog 'enslaved'?

Of course it is, all pets are enslaved, some are just better enslaved than others.

 

[Gramaisc]

Of course it is, all pets are enslaved, some are just better enslaved than others.

My uncle had a dog that was more of a lodger than a pet and certainly wasn't enslaved. He arrived one day, had a look round and decided to stay, if it was convenient. He never had a lead or a collar on. He had a look at what went on and joined in where it was mutually beneficial. He used to take the odd day off and had a week or so away every summer.