NEW NEW CONSERVATIVE LEADER/PRIME MINISTER.

gilbert grape

Well-Known Forumite
Have you never seen a map of the oil fields of Iraq? Of course, that was all about human preservation and decency wasn't it? Not massive American or British companies moving in and raping natural resources.
If the Ukraine war is purely about standing up for the Ukrainian people, why did the West stand by for the preceding years while Ukraine acting in a more than ideal manner, but then jump on board like they are the Saints of Europe? It's the bread basket of the world so it's bound to be about resource and ownership yet again!
If these wars were what they were painted as - simply Good versus Bad - it would be straight forward. Our own nation is hardly steeped in principles, is it! "We'll help you out on your energy bills, that shouldn't actually be that high, and act like Knights on white chargers but you'll have to pay it all back in the coming years while we spend billions more on dodgy deals and sending more arms to immoral wars!"
I personally think we stand at the edge of the precipice that is World War 3 with people who want to put out a fire by using very expensive petrol!
This time we are closer to those big red buttons being pushed as there are a few more nutters in charge!
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
The west should have stepped in during 2014, you are right, but the situation was very different then. The basically Russian stooge running the place had only just fled, until that point they'd been more like Belarus is today, so it was really Russia exerting pressure on its own satellite regions. We wouldn't step in today if it was Belarus, we wouldnt help north korea either for that matter, or many others.

And this is why Putin thought he'd be allowed to do it again, but this time Ukraine fought back hard, and the west offered to help. Early on Kyiv offered to stay neutral as a buffer between Russia and NATO, but that wasn't good enough for Russia, so now their full membership is likely (along with a few more unexpected countries!) Meaning whatever the outcome in Ukraine Russia will have an almost constant border with NATO now.

Putin screwed up, bad. He thought he could just march in and take a whole country, now he's looking weak. His much feared army turned out to be so disorganised that superior numbers and obliteration by shelling aren't enough to win. His mercs, while very effective and deadly in small numbers, aren't enough in a real war. He's conscripting randomly, I know of a farmer and an IT worker that have been mobilised each with zero experience - just cannon fodder. I also know of a few that ran to Turkey before getting called up, doubt they can ever return now.

But the west will keep throwing weapons in, its just money and we always have money for war, we won't put boots on the ground yet though. Nukes are the only thing putin has that makes anyone scared now, everything else was bluff, his military has been shown for what it is. He's not long for this world, I wouldn't put it past him using some even knowing that will mean Russia being completely destroyed.
 

SketchyMagpie

Well-Known Forumite
If these wars were what they were painted as - simply Good versus Bad - it would be straight forward.
I mean I don't believe that that portrayal of any war is accurate, just for the record, so no arguments there. "Good" and "evil" are entirely subjective and almost meaningless terms IMHO.
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
Rather than good vs bad I prefer to think in terms of invader and invaded. There has to be pretty extreme circumstances to warrant an actual invasion, if they don't exist (and they rarely do) then the invader is the bad guy.
 

SketchyMagpie

Well-Known Forumite
I know, but what I mean is that the people we conceive as being "evil" often believe they are the ones acting righteously. There have been many Russian soldiers who believed the war was justified going in but became deserters once they saw the reality of Ukraine.
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
I know, but what I mean is that the people we conceive as being "evil" often believe they are the ones acting righteously. There have been many Russian soldiers who believed the war was justified going in but became deserters once they saw the reality of Ukraine.
Yeah, it's the same for a friends family. The older members still inside Russia are 100% sure it's a righteous war, the younger are more split since conscription appeared, I have no idea what the 2 already drafted feel as my friend hadn't heard. When it was just soldiers it was easier to support, once it was them it became different.

Similar here actually (riga), Latvians are all pro Ukraine but those with strong Russian family ties are ambivalent. Years of forced migration in the USSR means there are many of them, but heavily outnumbered by natives. Its weird, one mate is very anti rusdia yet his dad served high up in the ussr military so is very pro Russia, a lot of families are very split over it.
 

gilbert grape

Well-Known Forumite
Over 20 years ago, an old friend married into a Russian family and his Brother in law just happened to be on Putin's security so their views on him were quite swayed. I distinctly remember one chat where his wife looked down her nose when Ukraine was mentioned and even then had a dislike of them. Considering the collapse of USSR was around 1991 I would guess they were still adjusting to their bread basket drifting away.
From what we regularly hear, Russian people will have relatively narrow views as their news has been restricted so so they get less of an informed and varied view.
 

Withnail

Well-Known Forumite
You're scarier than I thought if you don;t believe any war is manufactured!
Well i don't think they are organic - oo look, there's some lovely war over here, and that war over there appears to be self-seeded - the question is rather 'manufactured by whom?' and 'to what end?'

So, tell us.

Manufactured by whom? To what end?

What's your take on the war* GG?

Or should we just assume that @Raven speaks for you on these matters too, and you parrot Putin's line?

* quick reminder that it is still a Special Military Operation, get the terminology right
 

tek-monkey

wanna see my snake?
Over 20 years ago, an old friend married into a Russian family and his Brother in law just happened to be on Putin's security so their views on him were quite swayed. I distinctly remember one chat where his wife looked down her nose when Ukraine was mentioned and even then had a dislike of them. Considering the collapse of USSR was around 1991 I would guess they were still adjusting to their bread basket drifting away.
From what we regularly hear, Russian people will have relatively narrow views as their news has been restricted so so they get less of an informed and varied view.
Older Russians resent the loss of 'their' lands, older Ukrainians remember how the USSR treated them last time they took control.
 

Gramaisc

Forum O. G.
Older Russians resent the loss of 'their' lands, older Ukrainians remember how the USSR treated them last time they took control.
The last remnants of failed empires often contain large numbers of people who still can't see it...

...whilst people in the escaped external remnants still look at them with (at best) bemusement.


Meanwhile:-

333039100_730690921965077_8564835775901761953_n.jpg
 

Studio Tan

Well-Known Forumite
That’s a worrying development. Do they all slowly crane their heads to follow him as he passes - like Vlad’s ‘doormen’ ?
 

Raven

Well-Known Forumite
I can...

Covid crisis? They didn't play by the rules but we had to.
Manufactured Ukraine war?
Cost of living crisis? Created as a long term problem that we have to fix.
Can't afford to help us continuously but will spend MORE billions on war?
All this ongoing and then they start restricting our movement to help the planet while China builds fuel burning power plants?

And you think Boris won't get a top job somewhere to carry this crap on?
Gilbert I have said before that you are trying to preach to the village idiots who have bought into the agenda & will just shout down any who try to wake them up, nasty foul mouthed as well one or two of them.

You may like to see this video that shows the lie makers in action.

 
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